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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kenjib" data-source="post: 89023" data-attributes="member: 530">Before anyone crafts the underlying rules behind a new non-Vancian magic system from whole cloth I'd like to point out some existing alternatives:1.  Psionic Handbook + If Thoughts Could Kill:  Together these provide a complete mana system and conversion of all Player's Handbook and Eldritch Might spells.  It includes solid rules for scaling damage on spells and slight alterations to some of the PHB spells to make the mathematics work more smoothly as spells scale up with different power costs.  It's a completely trivial task to create a mana based wizard with the help of these rules - or if you want a change from the PHB spells you could just use the psionic rules straight up and call it magic instead of psionics, since it's purely a semantical difference.2.  Sovereign Stone:  Skill based, manaless, slotless, casting with a potential for subdual damage.  No artificial, contrived, mechanics to prevent you from casting spells all day long or to prevent access to higher level spells.  It all flows very naturally.  Magic is based on the four elements.  There is also a void magic by which casting the more dark types of spells is dangerous.  Bonus:  Includes numerous other non-magical classes so you can eliminate paladins, rangers, etc. if you want.3.  Chaos Magic from Mongoose:  A more freeform system of creating magical effects on the fly from different disciplines - damage, transportation, etc.  Casting causes subdual damage.4.  Wild Magic from Natural 20 Press:  Introduces randomness into casting spells and the potential for error.5.  Wheel of Time:  Spell slot system with additional rules for weaving, overcasting, and a much more interesting and flavorful set of "schools" of magic, with rules for accessing them, etc.  Bonus:  Includes numerous other non-magical classes so you can eliminate paladins, rangers, etc. if you want.6.  Use the OA Shaman or DMG Witch spell lists for the wizard class:  Available spells are more subtle, less flashy.Published rules have a better chance of working with fewer problems since they are subject to a bit more scrutiny and, hopefully, playtesting.  Maybe it's good to take advantage of what's already out there as a basis for what we're doing and then move on from there.  It seems that some people have expressed a desire for magic that follows one or more of the models above.My problem is that I want something very esoteric, hermetic, and occult, which is based heavily around the concept of unearthing ancient secrets.  This isn't the focus of any of the above systems and that's why I proposed a different model, but for those whose needs might already be covered I'd really recommend looking at the above systems.In addition, if anyone can suggest other systems which I left off, comment further on the suitability of any of these systems for low magic (I know people have mentioned it before as well), or correct any misconceptions I have of the above, please chime in.</blockquote>

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