Too old for the first time?

[comrade raoul]

I don't really think there's anything objectively wrong with 4e--it's just that a lot of the apparent flavor and tone doesn't do much for me, the same way that most of the flavor from the last couple of years of 3.5e products doesn't do much for me. I like a D&D that evokes gritty, uncivilized swords-and-sorcery crossed with the pulpy weirdness of post-Tolkien fantasy. Moorcock camp is great; anime camp, less so. Player characters should remind one of the Conan novels, or at any rate Baldur's Gate, not World of Warcraft.

I think this is not an uncommon sentiment on the boards.

So Wormwood's post on another thread was illuminating for me.

Well said.

My 11 and 14 year old nephews have never heard of the Grey Mouser, Holger Carlson or Elric. Meanwhile, I was mystified by their references to Airbenders and Alchemists and Elder Scrolls. Our only shared fantasy reference points: Final Fantasy, Peter Jackson, Drizzt Do'Urden and Blizzard Entertainment.

With a little work, I was able to alter my D&D game to appeal to their expectations (at-will and encounter abilities, Nine Swords styles, etc).

I'm about to turn twenty-six. I don't have nephews, and don't expect to have them for a very long time. (When I do have nephews--or children, for that matter--I doubt I'll game with them, or even introduce them to gaming.)

What's striking is that--for the first time, for a D&D edition--I'm not the target audience. I was nine or so when I got my 2e Player's Handbook (the first D&D book I owned)--I loved the image of the knight charging at the viewer through the canyon; I was charmed but a bit disoriented by the book's dreamy illustrations, the arbitrary characters and unfamiliar vocabulary, the wonky simulationist detail (with pricing for water clocks and sedan chairs!). (A year later, I was equally charmed by the 1e cover's demon and jewel thief when I saw it at my summer camp's library.) I was a senior in high school when 3e got released; I welcomed the bit of edginess and the elegance of the rules.

Now I think at least half of the 4e flavor is irredeemably lame (the other half seems pretty cool, though). I have no interest in playing it; if I had time to game, I'd probably want to do something with heavily-modified E6 rules in a homebrew setting. But what I'm really struck by is that my reaction is massively irrelevant--in fact, I'm glad that Wizards isn't aiming at me. They're aiming for--and should be aiming for--the kids who play the game at recess, and who go home and play it with friends from the internet. I mean, haven't people talked forever at the importance of building a next generation of fans? And shouldn't it be prima facie plausible that whatever appeals to the next generation of fans very well won't appeal to us grown-ups?

 

[mhensley]

Hmm... I'm 42 and I'm really looking forward to giving 4e a try. I think 4e is more in line with my wants than 3e was as it promises to be a simpler and faster game.

 

[WayneLigon]

(When I do have nephews--or children, for that matter--I doubt I'll game with them, or even introduce them to gaming.)

Why in the world would you not do this?

And shouldn't it be prima facie plausible that whatever appeals to the next generation of fans very well won't appeal to us grown-ups?

Not really, no. I'm 45 and the newer stuff appeals to me more in general than Conan and King Arthur ever did. I've yet to see a 3.5 character or described 4E character that reminded me more of WoW more than it did the normal run of D&D characters I've seen in the past.

 

[Cadfan]

I am also 26. I think I'm 4e's target audience, or at least that I'm within the age and demographical bounds encompassing it.

I do think, though, that its less important that I be in the target demographic these days. Because I'm an older, experienced player who understands most of what makes the game tick, I can easily design things within the game that I like. For example, I think the Whispersmith from The Iron Council is an absolutely badass character. Its not that tough for me to sketch up a Whispersmith using existing classes as benchmarks. I can write my own fluff, I can retheme existing classes to fit my personal fluff preferences, and I can even poke and nudge the rules to get them more to my liking.

So the default should be for people who can't do that.

 

[T. Foster]

At the time I began playing D&D (at age 9, in 1984) I too had never heard of the Gray Mouser, Holger Carlson, or Elric. My idea of fantasy, to the extent I had one at all, was pretty much limited to He-Man toys and Disney and Harryhausen movies. And yet I still found D&D appealing and fascinating -- the fact that it was outside of my cultural comfort zone and was introducing me to new and previously unfamiliar styles and genres was a big (perhaps the biggest) part of the appeal. An interest in and knowledge of classic swords & sorcery fiction didn't lead me to or make me interested in D&D, my interest in D&D led me to seek out classic swords & sorcery fiction (most of which was just as out-of-print in 1985 as it is in 2007, and even less accessible because there was no ebay or amazon marketplace -- if the local used-bookstore didn't have it you were SOL).

Therefore, I flatly and thoroughly reject the notion that D&D must "update" itself to conform to what kids today like and are familiar with -- that it must reject Howard and Leiber in favor of WoW and Final Fantasy. If I was able to overcome my lack of familiarity with the inspirational material in 1984 and still learn to enjoy and appreciate the game on its own terms, there's no reason a kid today shouldn't be able to do the same (especially since he can acquire the same Gardner Fox or A. Merritt or Fritz Leiber novels with a single mouseclick that I spent years scouring musty used bookstores all over half a dozen states in search of). D&D should be molding, rather than chasing, the tastes of its audience, now just as it did in the 70s and 80s.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Now I think at least half of the 4e flavor is irredeemably lame (the other half seems pretty cool, though).

Do you know what confuses me? I share the same reaction about the flavour. I'm a gearhead, and hence I really want to play with the rules - but the flavour... I cannot stand the new revised Wizard Implements article (Emerald Frost? Golden Wyvern?). I like the cosmology bits... and the points-of-darkness-bits... but I don't really care for the rest.

But then, I like Moorcock (esp. Elric), Earthsea, Tolkien, Howard, Lovecraft - but also Mievillé and Jordan. And guess what? I'm 20. 3E was my "Classic D&D" - I've got it 2002, started to play and love the game, dug up old 2e books, loved fluff (esp. Planescape), but hated 2E's crunch. And now, only five years later... I stand here, love the mechanics... but either don't really care for the flavour, or dislike it.

And for the record: I like anime and manga, videogames and "new-fangled stuff", and that my long-time girlfriend is into it (anime, videogames), doesn't help!

And that... made me a bit wary about 4E. Later, I forgot the wariness, mainly because I'm a tinker-DM, meaning I will get 4E, look though the books, and probably throw out their flavour for my own. Or use Eberron. Or old FR. And be happy like a little child about the new mechanics unless they botcher them).

But I wonder: Who is their target group?

Cheers, LT.

 

[Festivus]

Hmm... I'm 42 and I'm really looking forward to giving 4e a try. I think 4e is more in line with my wants than 3e was as it promises to be a simpler and faster game.

Perhaps us old folks *are* the target audience (also 42 here). They release this dungeon survival guide, full of what... old adventures. They might rerelease all the old adventures with 4E, and include a boxed set of rules that includes a d20 and a crayon for good measure.

 

[Wormwood]

Perhaps us old folks *are* the target audience (also 42 here)

Targeted or not, I fear that we are the de facto audience.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

For the record, Dark Horse is rereleasing all of the Fafhrd & The Grey Mouser stories. The final book will be out in December. If you know someone who's never read these, the four-book set will make a nice Christmas/Hannukah present. (Note the last book is a little sexy, so be aware of them before pushing them on young fantasy fans.)

Honestly, anyone who plays D&D should give these a read, even if you donate them to the library afterwards, just to see the book that REALLY inspired much of D&D. Whereas you read LotR and have to squint to see it as a D&D game, it's shocking how close the tone and flavor of F&GM is to D&D, which it predates by years and years.

 

[Khairn]

Targeted or not, I fear that we are the de facto audience.

We may be the defacto audience, but for many of us we certainly don't believe that we are currently targetted or even listened to by WotC.

Oh, and I agree with the OP. WotC seems clearly to be targetting 4E at the kids and hopefully trying to keep as much of the "older" gamers as they can. Probably the smart business decision.