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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 3477603" data-attributes="member: 2011">Nail said 12. When I illustrated that as incorrect, he found an error and corrected it. He now says 11. I think this is still incorrect and it is really closer to 10.5 than 11, but have not yet had a chance to go back and prove it.Nevertheless, even using Nail's 11 average touch AC, your example of 12 is a bit high for a first level comparison considering that it is higher than average for the MM.I do not need to propose another creature. That one is fine. If the Wilder hits, he'll average 69% of the creatures hit points in a single shot. This conversation started with me stating that the Wilder will often do 70% or more damage to an opponent and you questioned that figure. You then backed up that figure with your example.You have yet to illustrate that the 70% figure is way off.Greater? That would be a poor assumption.The Wilder is often hitting 95% of the time at that level. Even if the full BAB PC hits 95% of the time with his first attack, he is hitting 70% of the time with his second and 45% of the time with his third.As an example, let's take a tricked out Raging Half Orc Barbarian at 11th level with starting Str 20 (now 22), Weapon Focus, +4 Belt of Giant Strength (16,000 GP) and a +2 Flaming Greatsword (18,000 GP) or more than half his money on two offensive items. His to hit would be +22. He hits AC 26 95% of the time. AC 26 is reasonable at 11th level, but is not especially high.Assuming his opponents do not have a higher AC or miss chances or Fire Resistance or are flying, he averages (95% + 70% + 45%) * 1.10 (critical) * (2D6 + 15Str + D6 flaming) = 58.9 average points of damage.With a 14 Dex and no magic and no feats, the 11th level Wilder hits touch AC 11 95% of the time. Presumably, he would have magic items and feats and special abiliites to help him out more (for example, Surging Euphoria adds +1 to hit on a successful surge), just like the Barbarian. So, he averages (95%) * 1.05 (critical) * (15D6+15 +1 Surging Euphoria) = 68.3 average points of damage.The moment the Wilder adds Empower (one feat) to the list, the damage jumps. Even without taking Psychic Meditation, that's a typically once per combat average of: (95%) * 1.05 (critical) * (13D6+13 +1 Surging Euphoria) * 1.5 = 89.25 average points of damage.The Barbarian can only full round attack sometimes. The first round is often one where he cannot until he gets within close melee range. The Wilder can often blast away in round one.The Barbarian here might not be the most potent combatant type build (a tripper could probably do more damage), but it is not a wimpy one either and the Wilder still averages more damage.He doesn't need 3 feats. 2 feats is enough: Energy Missile and Empower. 3 feats is gravy.Say 6 NPCs of which he is able to target 4. At 10th level, 1 NPC takes full damage, 2 NPCs take half damage, and 1 NPC is totally protected (for some unknown reason such as Evasion or Energy Resistance or Spell Resistance). This is a fairly common scenario and results against multiple opponents.The NPCs have 70 hit points each (7 hit point average which is reasonable) or 420 hit points. There is no to hit roll. The Wilder does 13D6+14 (SE) or 119 hit points total. In round one, he has damaged the opposition (of 6 opponents) by 28%. In one round. He has done his fair share of the entire combat already. Granted, the NPCs can heal themselves (if they have that ability) or whatever. But in one round, the Wilder has done more than the 25% damage as a member of the party that he is responsible for. Future rounds are gravy. Additional damage is gravy and saving party resources. Enervation for a single round is irrelevant because he has already succeeded in his goal.The same level 10th level Raging Barbarian with a full round attack and lucky to hit twice does 40+ points of damage or about 10% (again, if he is lucky enough to both get a full round attack in and to hit both times). The 11th level Raging Barbarian getting lucky with all 3 attacks hitting does 70 points or 17% and might take out a single opponent. A level higher plus luck and he might do slightly more than half the damage the Wilder did.Funny, but you did not do that when you were talking about the Barbarian's or the Rogue's damage.But, no worries. The well designed Wilder is designed to have a good to hit. He might take feats to help (such as Point Blank Range and Precise Shot, both of which he can get if he is human at first level).For ranged touch attacks, the to hit quickly becomes a non-issue for a Wilder.But not at the same time. Very few creatures have immunity / resistance to both.And many creatures that have resistance to one or the other also have Damage Reduction, so the Wilder tends to hold his own as well as the Barbarian here (in fact, DR 10 on 3 attacks stops more damage than ER 10 or even ER 20 on one attack).And many of the creatures that have immunity to fire or cold take double damage from the other.No doubt. It is a factor. But, less so than DR typically is.Why would a Wilder cripple himself by not taking good options? That doesn't make sense.If he is a one trick pony, he had best be the best one trick pony around because he only gets a few opportunities to shine.Btw, I screwed up my 3rd level chart on the first page. I forgot that the Wilder does not pay extra PP for surging (unless he enervates), so typically a 3rd level Wilder can typically go full bore surge 4 or 5 times per day, not 3. At higher levels, he can do it more often.If you do this, do this across the board. Every level, not just first. Single attacks and full round attacks, not just full round attacks. Average ACs, not slightly higher ones. Average hit points, not slightly higher ones.</blockquote>

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