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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8522575" data-attributes="member: 42582">I backed the Torchbearer 2nd edition Kickstarter in April 2020. My books arrived a couple of weeks ago: the two core book (Dungeoneer's Handbook, Scholar's Guide), the expansion book (Lore Master's Manual) and a book of scenarios (Cartographer's Compendium). I also got PDF of all these plus the Scavenger's Supplement, another expansion.In this post I'll be commenting on the full suite of this material without distinguishing core and supplements. That distinction is a bit unstable in any event, with multiple references in both core books to material in the Lore Master's Manual. Although the two core books are, in both title and the way they address the reader, meant to emulate a PHB and DMG, I don't think they fully succeed in that respect. There is stuff in the Scholar's Guide that players absolutely need to know, including the core action resolution rules; and personally I would have found it easier with a different approach to the presentation of the material, with less overlap between the two core books and less need (as a reader) to read across multiple books including the Lore Master's Manual to get the full picture of a particular subsystem. But maybe there are going to be some RPGers who just use the two core books, which perhaps justifies the way it's been done.I've not played Torchbearer in either its original or this revised version. But I have played, and am a big fan of, Burning Wheel, which is the system that Torchbearer is (largely) derived from. Where Torchbearer differs from Burning Wheel is first and foremost in the "theme" or focus of play; and the mechanical differences are then (mostly) built around that. The stand-out items in the Games list in the Scholar's Guide bibliography are:*The Caverns of Thracia, by Jennell Jaquays *Dungeon Module B2: The Keep on the Borderlands, by Gary Gygax *Dungeons & Dragons Rules for Fantasy Medieval Wargames Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures, by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, Tactical Studies Rules, 1974 *Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Adventure Game, by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson (edited by Tom Moldvay), TSR, 1981. *A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming, by Matthew FinchIn other words, Torchbearer is what you get if you (i) take the basic Burning Wheel framework for PC build (stock, stats, skills, traits, Wises, Beliefs, Instincts, Resources, Circles, Relationships) and action resolution ("say 'yes' or roll the dice; "fail forward"; pacing and thematically-driven toggling between simple checks and various more-or-less baroque extended resolution systems), (ii) simplify it in places (shorten the length of the stat and skill lists; make traits simpler and more uniform in their mechanical effects; merge the extended resolution systems into a single one - I believe that Mouse Guard did this first, but I don't know it other than by reputation), and then (iii) adapt it and add necessary elements to make it support classic D&D-esque dungeon crawling and wilderness adventuring (classes instead of life paths; levels - from 1st to 10th - as an additional component of the PC; shifting some of the work done by Beliefs into distinct Goal - what are we going to do this session? - and Creed - what's your alignment? - slots; a systematic inventory and encumbrance system; random loot tables, and a whole new suite of downtime resolution systems to soak up that loot).At a high level of description, Torchbearer can be compared Dungeon World: a modern system dedicated to capturing the feel of classic D&D. At a more detailed level I think there are significant differences; I'll get back to these below.Anyway, here's my first serious thought about this system: The flavour is amazing. For me, this really started to come through in two ways. First, reading the different settlement types, in the context of the town phase (which is the system's downtime resolution framework) and starting to think through how this might feel in play. The differences between Bustling Metropolises, Religious Bastion's, Walled Towns, Borderland Fortresses, and the not-quite-Rivendell-nor-quite-Lorien Elfhomes - just to name a few of over a dozen settlement types - comes through very vividly.The second way the flavour struck me was via the classes. Each class has a stock ("race", in classic D&D terms), a trait, some core skills, and a list of level benefit. Around this structure we get Halfling Bounders, Burglars and Stoorish, Smeagol-ish Guides; Elven Rangers and Dreamwalkers (the system's version of an Elven magic-user); Dwarven Outcasts (like Thorin Oakenshield; at higher levels they may be joined on their adventures by their cousins) and Stonetellers (the system's version of a Dwarven cleric); and a variety of options for humans: thieves, warriors, skalds and various users of magic, including magicians with their memorised spells, shamans and theurges (two categories of cleric who are nicely differentiated, and correspond a little bit to druids vs clerics in AD&D) and sorcerers who have no D&D analogue but combine aspects of Burning Wheel summoning and Burning Wheel spirit-binding.Here's my second serious thought: Play looks incredibly demanding and unforgiving. This is probably the biggest difference, at least on reading, from Dungeon World. There is not the soft-move/hard-move structure of DW; as in Burning Wheel, many checks will probably be failed (due to high obstacles relative to the abilities and augments the players can muster), but unlike BW there is a systematic process for inflicting consequences in the form of debilitating conditions which range from hungry and thirsty to dead. Hungry and thirsty can be recovered by a short rest, provided the characters are carrying rations and/or water. But everything else requires an extended rest to recover (camp phase or the downtime town phase), and the rationing of actions (including recovery checks) in camp phase is brutal; and town phase also rations, not via an action economy but via the need to make a Lifestyle Resources check at the end of each town phase, with the more luxurious accommodations that permit more recoveries also adding to that Lifestyle obstacle. (The relationship between Lifestyle and periodic Resources checks comes from Burning Wheel; the implementation of them in this system is all its own thing!) The death spiral, with multiple layers and moving parts in terms of both PC build elements, the basic structure of play, and the passage of both at-the-table and in-game time,  seems as severe as anything I've seen in a RPG.On reading, it's very hard to tell how the flavour and the play will intersect. I can see how the system has the tools to resolve Bilbo the Burglar stabbing and tricking the giant spiders in Mirkwood to rescue his captured companions. But I can't tell what Bilbo's chance of success would be; though my intuition is that, to Bilbo's player, things would look pretty dire! I don't know if or when I'll be able to persuade some or all of my group to give this a try. Hopefully at some stage. I think it's a system that wants to be played.</blockquote>

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