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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8555474" data-attributes="member: 71699">I don't want to derail the main purpose of this interesting thread. We've found 5e and DW possible to run in similar (but not identical, that's not the claim) ways, both by erroneously running DW as a traditional game (answering the question, can you run DW at all like 5e?) and by applying agenda and principles to run 5e as a fiction-first game (answering the question, can you run 5e at all like DW?) We have different grasps of some fundamental concepts, such as including effectiveness in our construct for fictional-positioning, and rejecting any hard separation of fiction and system. One timeline, not two. I don't think we should get into those here, but I mention them in order to point out committments that can lead to differing judgements.Torchbearer 2e is impossible to run like 5e, and vice versa. At the very least, the grind separates it out. We've found so far that the price of a turn for each test, and the gearing that translates tests and turns into conditions, creates a mechanical vise. Additionally, 5e has nothing approaching the story-now mechanics of Torchbearer 2e. In particular, we've found instinct to be a crucial lever that there is no way to emulate in 5e, because the cost it obviates doesn't exist. I've found writing instincts that will be effective in play, without reaching, is a clutch skill. Speaking of skills, understanding the help and gear web, and ensuring characters are properly set up to work together, makes a huge difference. 5e TIBFs cannot approach the story-mechanics relationships that are defined with precision in the TB2e game text. And that's without going into conflict and disposition!TB2e is a tour-de-force of game design, as is DW, but they are very different games. TB2e has highly detailed, precise mechanics that are meshed together to deliver what feels like very strongly story-now play. In urging players to huddle, and many hints at thinking mechanically, I felt TB2e doesn't sign up to fiction-first as strongly as DW does. TB2e is not about winning in a traditional sense (although you're certainly intended to strive for it). To my understanding the intended narratives use that only as a kind of magnetic pole. To me, it's the dramatic character development that counts most in TB2e. Given the brutally hard game-world, it's the only goal you can rely on satisfying! Perhaps the mechanic for gaining checks in particular speaks to that.I wonder if it comes down to the way each game reifies its intent? I felt that TB2e reifies its intent in its mechanics. Whereas DW reifies its intent in its principles. The DW mechanics ensure a certain basic pattern is followed, but you can follow that pattern in different ways (i.e. play DW the way many play 5e). TB2e has numerous bespoke and yet tightly interwoven mechanics, such as those for each phase, and for each element in each phase: it's an absolute machine. Impossible to play TB2e as 5e (and vise versa.)</blockquote>

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