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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kahuna Burger" data-source="post: 1493070" data-attributes="member: 8439">Torture is not short of death, its a completely different situation, and I don't find it more reasonable - less so, because it directly screws with the part of the game which is the players domain - the behaviour and personality of the character. But thats just my side of the discussion on whether to include it. My core point has been that you have to have that discussion in the first place, not throw it in mid-game.optional rules. Which I expect to know about the inclusion of before they show up. And not very good rules either, since they include almost no talk of defenses. Though I believe Cook did discuss preaproval of the 'rating' of a game and the themes that would be involved by both DM and players. Which puts that suplement on my side, not the other.You don't get it, but thats ok. If I do not want to deal with torture in a game ('can not deal'? do you really think I'm some insecure punk who will roll over and accept something as good because my (non existant) masculinity is threatened? geesh...) I play in a game that does not include mechanics for torture. That is the majority of RPGs, including D&D. If someone else wants to include torture in a game, I expect them to introduce the story element and the mechanics at the outset. And if those mechanics are reasonable, and if the plot element is one I know about when designing my character, guess what? its OK. I am not objecting to any game which includes that story element, I explicitly said that it was inappropriate to throw it into an ongoing standard game with no discussion. Which, IIRC, was what Monte Cook said in his discussion of using the optional rules in the BoVD. Clever, but clever has little to do with correct. The game does not include a lot of elements of reality, or a lot of elements of genre fiction. One of the elements that is not included in the game is torture. To include it is a rules change. A rules change compatible with some parts of the base genre? Who gives a flying you know what in a rolling donut? I am playing in a game, not a random selection from a broad genre. I play a game which does not include torture in the rules. And that is all I reasonably need to do to not randomly encounter torture involving my character. If you want to play in a game that includes the possibility of torture, you have the upfront discussion at the start of the campaign. Simple, really.Kahuna Burger</blockquote>

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