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<blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 791300" data-attributes="member: 1465">By the book it seems that Unarmed Strike is a simple weapon, and if you don't have prof. in Simple Weapons (or US specifically) then you would get -4. This unless UStrike is considered &quot;natural weapon&quot;, and every creature is proficient with its natural weapons, IIRC. I really think it is not meant this way, and instead everyone IS proficient with Unarmed Strike. You may argue that UStrike is missing from the Wizard prof. on purpose, since it may make sense he is not good in barehand fight, but then it would be missing also from the Rogue list (and maybe even the Monk?). Makes no sense.Furthermore, Touch Attacks (Touch Spells or Grapple) show no example in the books when the Wiz takes -4. &quot;Touch&quot; is not listed as a weapon, but still you are armed and attacking - you don't provoke AoO* (if it's a spell) and can even make AoOs*.IIRC in T&amp;B the section about gettin weapon feats with touch spells makes no mention of the need to have taken Simple Weapon Prof.My conclusion is that you can safely consider anyone proficient with Touch Attacks AND Unarmed Strike, which are basically the same weapon.*these assume you have cast the spell beforehandIf my first answer makes sense, is it possible and useful.I don't remember exactly what T&amp;B says about combining Unarmed Strike and Touch Spells. IIRC Weapon Finesse (Touch) &quot;looks&quot; different from Weapon Finesse (Unarmed), because in T&amp;B it says WF(TOUCH) and not the other. But considering the rules, again in T&amp;B, about inflicting unarmed damage AND discharging the touch at the same time (with Improved US), i.e. with the same attack, then I am sure they are meant to be exactly the same Weapon Finesse.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Li Shenron, post: 791300, member: 1465"] By the book it seems that Unarmed Strike is a simple weapon, and if you don't have prof. in Simple Weapons (or US specifically) then you would get -4. This unless UStrike is considered "natural weapon", and every creature is proficient with its natural weapons, IIRC. I really think it is not meant this way, and instead everyone IS proficient with Unarmed Strike. You may argue that UStrike is missing from the Wizard prof. on purpose, since it may make sense he is not good in barehand fight, but then it would be missing also from the Rogue list (and maybe even the Monk?). Makes no sense. Furthermore, Touch Attacks (Touch Spells or Grapple) show no example in the books when the Wiz takes -4. "Touch" is not listed as a weapon, but still you are armed and attacking - you don't provoke AoO* (if it's a spell) and can even make AoOs*. IIRC in T&B the section about gettin weapon feats with touch spells makes no mention of the need to have taken Simple Weapon Prof. My conclusion is that you can safely consider anyone proficient with Touch Attacks AND Unarmed Strike, which are basically the same weapon. *these assume you have cast the spell beforehand If my first answer makes sense, is it possible and useful. I don't remember exactly what T&B says about combining Unarmed Strike and Touch Spells. IIRC Weapon Finesse (Touch) "looks" different from Weapon Finesse (Unarmed), because in T&B it says WF(TOUCH) and not the other. But considering the rules, again in T&B, about inflicting unarmed damage AND discharging the touch at the same time (with Improved US), i.e. with the same attack, then I am sure they are meant to be exactly the same Weapon Finesse. [/QUOTE]

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