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Message: <blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 1184676" data-attributes="member: 10201">I concur that Ref saves are very important--to everyone.Initiative in D&D3E doesn't matter a damn bit.  Since almost everything functions on the "from your action until just before the same initiative number in the next round" time unit, it doesn't matter whether you go on 20 and th other guy goes on 15, or you go on 5 and the other guy goes on 20--either way, you go 5 counts ahead of her *and* 15 counts behind her, in steady repetition.  After the 1st round, having a higher initiative number is meaningless.  And IME, 1 round doesn't make much difference after about 2nd level.I see where you're coming from--i was looking at it in a very different way.  I was thinking of it in terms of utility to individual people, not overall utility.I hadn't thought of dex for spellcasters--IME, spellcasters don't bother with a high Dex because they don't use it.  Most spellcasters in my games haven't used many ranged touch attacks, and the difference that Dex makes to AC is still too small to matter.  Rogues obviously need a lot of Dex, as do monks.  But they also need Str (especially the monk).  But when you look at the fighting classes, dex gives you AC and Ref saves.  But armor is far more effective at helping your AC than Dex is.  The Dex impact on Ref saves is pretty much overwhelmed, IMHO, by class and other bonuses, and teh die roll.  The problem is that saves are fairly infrequent events, unless they're do to an attack that a monster makes repeatedly--and the only one that immediately comes to mind for that is Fort saves vs. poisons.  Attack & damage rolls, on the other hand, usually come in batches, which averages out the effect of the die roll, letting even small modifiers make a difference.  If you have poor Dex, buy armor (if you're a warrior), either don't mess with traps or boost your skills (if you're a rogue), or stick to spells that aren't ranged touch attacks (if you're a spellcaster).  If you have poor Str, you're screwed--it clobbers your attacks *and* your damage, so you can't really trade off between the two.  There's not much else that boosts attack rolls and damage as much as Str does.  [i'm obviously not counting magic--because that can boost anything.]Hmmm...i suspect i'm not being very articulate.  Let me try it this way: i can't think of any other stat that gives a double boost to any one activity, much less the central activity of combat.  Dex *does* benefit a whole bunch of things (some important skills, some elements of combat, a save), but none of them are overwhelming, or make up as much of that class of activity as Str does of combat.  Put another way, i'd play a fighter with crappy Dex before i'd play one with crappy Str, just from a survivability standpoint.Finally, if Weapon Finesse doesn't break the system, i guess i find it a bit of a stretch to claim that basically giving everyone that benefit for free would break the system.</blockquote>

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