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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 1185527" data-attributes="member: 151">I'll assume you were addressing mmu1, since you quoted him.  I was directly answering your statement, as mentioned above.  I wasn't calling your credentials into play, nor implying a lack of knowledge or skill...merely that your 3E group's play style is not the norm, based on what you've described.  In the 3+ years since the 3e debuted, I've been in three games, two as a DM, one as a player (and some RPGA events).  In that time, the main game has reached 21st level, the secondary game has reached 7th level, and the third game has advanced several levels (from 4th to 6th, and then to 10th).  And we don't play every week, as I mentioned.  I think you'll find that most folks on the board here are 30+ years old, and all have Basic D&D or AD&D experience, at the least.   The only reason your experience is relevant is that you haven't played above 10th, where the game play is significantly different than prior to 10th.  That doesn't make your opinion invalid, but your view is somewhat skewed.  If you don't have characters who are getting Initiative scores in the high 30s/low 40s, you aren't as likely to see the relevance.  Well, to be fair to takyris, he listed Initiative as "- Initiative: Major in my opinion, although I'm open to debate" which leaves him some wiggle room.  I would personally list it as 'potentially major, depending on play style'.  I think the nature of your combat set-ups and the frequency of combat in your game is a major factor in your opinion of Init's worth.  If you're always encountering the enemy with no suprise, and not dealing with high mobility, powerful ranged spells or powerful ranged attackers as often, you won't see as much value in it. That said, on average, a higher init character will act first.  It sounds like he tradtionally rolls well and you traditionally roll poorly...which says more about your dice and the law of averages than the mechanic.  On average, I see the high Init characters, such as the DEX28 rogue with Improved Init and the DEX 30 Arcane Archer at the top of the init line.  I almost always see the DEX 12 Cleric and DEX 10 Paladin at the bottom.  There are rare instances where this isn't the case, but overall, it holds true.  The cleric rarely has the opportunity to go before the enemies do...which means he is at risk from enemy spellcasters and effects before he acts.  If you encounter a devil or demon with Teleport at will, and he goes first and teleports right into your midst, the spellcasters now have their actions dictated by the monster.  Cast on the defensive or 5' step and cast?  If that Wight assasain strikes first, you may be looking at serious ability drain before your fighter can even move.  That Inevitable may have just shot your archer or rogue with an enervation: now your cleric either needs to cast a restoration (wasting a spell opportunity) or leave them at risk. You are entirely correct that after the first round, a high initiative is meaningless.  But that first round can be huge. In the most recent combat in my game, the characters faced off against a mixed group of Slaadi, including two White Slaad.  The Whites have the ability to cast Finger of Death at will, several Epic spells once per day, and have some horrific attacks.  Loss of initiative to them can mean an instant 20d6 area attack against the party, at the very least, or a melee attack at +48 that will do 2d6+18 and then 2d4+18 for 9 more rounds.</blockquote>

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