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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bardolph" data-source="post: 1198628" data-attributes="member: 2304">Point taken.  A bell-curve system with multiple dice (such as in GURPS) tends to emphasize average results, while de-emphasizing exceptional ones.I stand corrected <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Hehe, well the first problem it solved was "how do we randomize combat?"  In Chess, for example, there is neither a "to hit" roll, nor a "damage" roll.  Attacker wins, period.  Always.Since the AC/hp system was the FIRST system in roleplaying games, all other systems are actually attempts to solve AC/hp, not the other way around.Actually, it's the AC/hp system that prompted Mr. Gygax to declare Strength as a "hit modifier" in the first place, and is what prompted this entire discussion.  (You see, Strength allows you to power through Armor, thus increasing your chance to hit, or so it goes...)But, as much a pain in the butt it can be, I've found it to be the most playable and fun system out there.Furthermore, the hit point system tends to "flatten out" the randomness inherent in the flat d20 roll, since it takes not one but several hits in succession to defeat any particular foe.  Unless a creature is particularly fragile, there is no "insta-kill", but it is possible to get a "hot streak."Correct, unless there are new Initiative rolls later on.  The DMG actually describes this style as a variant option, but realize that it will slow down combat a lot, and it still won't grant higher Initiative with more attacks.  Plus, it will create a much greater randomization factor, since sometimes creatures who lose initiative early on will get two turns in a row, plus it becomes extremely difficult to predict how long combat effects will last.  Again, this will mean more PC death.But I think you are putting too much emphasis on Initiative per se.  A quick, highly skilled, dextrous fighter has plenty of opportunities to shine, above and beyond the first strike.First and foremost, there is the AC bonus, then there are Dex-related feats and skills (Weapon Finesse and Tumble come to mind).  And of course, there is ranged combat (which seems to be neglected in this thread) and Reflex saves.If you try to give bonus attacks to High Dex or High Initiative characters, you will quickly find that ALL fighters will be forced into playing only that style, since the advantage will not only be significant, but overwhelming.Understood.  But your high DEX will still give you AC bonuses.  But also understand that high DEX will also give you bonuses on Hide and Move Silently, both of which will increase your chances of surprise in the first place.Look.  Even fast, quick characters aren't going to win if they can't exploit their advantages.  If you win Initiative, but fail to press it, then you don't deserve any lasting advantage!  That's the competence factor.No.  The Init advantage is better.  Surprise only grants a partial actionWhat exactly are you looking for here?  An automatic win?  You get a free attack against flat-footed characters!  Plus, if you are a tactically savvy team, you can use the surprise round to surround the enemy in such a way that they can't maneuver without invoking Attacks of Opportunity.I couldn't disagree more.  What's the point of combat, without risk?This is also not true.  A DEX-based fighter still rolls the same hit die as the STR-based fighter.  But the STR-based fighter doesn't have the same DEX bonus on his AC to protect him...I don't see how "dashing into combat and back out again" should be a "piece of cake" for any but the most experienced of combatants.  What you want is a character who can take free pot-shots at the enemy at NO RISK TO HIMSELF.  If that's what you want, why not make an archer?I don't get your point.  First of all, the in-and-out IS an option (albeit it takes two turns).  It's not without risk, but that's an occupational hazard.  Besides, if you took a FIGHTER instead of a monk, you can get Spring Attack as early as 4th level!Additionally, what makes you think that "bruiser" characters aren't risking THEIR lives, too?  Their d10-hit-points-per-die is going to run out just as fast as your swashbuckler, except they're just going to get hit more often!To be honest, even Tanks have to take feats in order to be effective.  Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Expertise, and of course Weapon Focus and Specialization are all staples of any Tank worth his salt.That's not the AD&D that I played.  According to the rules, all characters must (1) declare their actions (INCLUDING movement), (2) THEN roll initiative, (3) THEN the DM narratively recounts the combat round, (4) calling PC's to roll the appropriate attack die when called for.Yes, but if the DM actually invoked that rule (in 1e/2e), the PC's would mutiny, since about 50% of all spells would get interrupted.  Remember, since in 1e/2e you had to declare actions FIRST, and roll initiative SECOND, you get a roughly 50% chance of losing initiative and therefore losing your spell (unless your spell had a long casting time, in which case you were virtually guaranteed to lose!).  It was such a ridiculous system that every DM I've ever played with threw it out, since it made it virtually impossible to play a spellcaster.But considering that these options did not exist until 3e introduced Feats, I would counter that they added options, instead of removing them.As far as stuff like Spring Attack is concerned, I would consider that to be Extraordinary.  Think about it: characters with Spring Attack is so fast and so nimble that they can approach an enemy close enough to attack, attack, and run away  all without an enemy ever getting a chance to react.  If that's not extraordinary, what the heck is?Besides, characters without Spring Attack can still "move in, attack, and spring away."  They just can't do it all in one turn.  Remember, the Bad Guy can still miss!!There's plenty of "cool stuff" open to characters without feats.  Feats let you go "above and beyond" the core combat mechanics, and to ignore penalties that other characters have to suffer.  That's Extraordinary, if you ask moe.Again, plenty of these options exist to characters without feats.  There's "fighting defensively," "charging", "disarm," "sunder," "bull rush," "trip," "tumble," "all-out defense," plus the intricacies of Attacks of Opportunity, cover, concealment, striking from above, mounted combat...What more do you want?  It just looks like you're complaining because there are no free handouts for your particular character.well, kudos to you.  It was a big pain in the a$$ for me.Well, I consider it "complicated" to have three AC's listed on every character sheet.That IS harder.  It's one more modifier you have to add to everything else.  But hey, if you liked it, I won't begrudge it to you....I don't know.  Think of the Initiative roll as a skill roll.  It's an opposed check to see who gets the "right to first strike," and it uses a d20 roll just like every other mechanic in the game.  It's fair, because first strike gives a significant (though arguably not overwhelming) advantage in combat, though it does not ALONE determine combat, the way it can in other systems.The rest of combat goes like this:  one round, one turn.  And the order is predictable, since it is the same as every round before it.  I'd call that "fair," and it makes IMHO a great system.</blockquote>

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