Touch of Golden Ice vs. Undead

[Sir ThornCrest]

I think I have found a problem here. The feat ToGI in the BoED is a ravage/affliction it effects undead correct? or it does not? If it does then its making ice appear on the outside of the struck victim, because undead would be immune to drain attacks. It description shows that evil victims will feel a chill go thru them. Does that mean non evil dont? Doesnt this ability make ice appear on the outside of victim, or is this ability just made to chill victim with no ice appearing? The description is so short and undetailed it leaves many questions.

If it is not considered a drain attack then why wouldnt the bonus of +4 to all non damaging DC's given by the vow of nonviolence effect the DC of the ToGI? Am I on to something here or just high?

Secondly I have posted the following question before but I still have issue. The 14DC assigned to ToGI is a fort save, the ToGI is not a manufactured spell or component its an effect created by the attacker/touchers own "power of will", so why wouldnt the DC be increased or decreased by the attackers wis, cha or class/feat level? Could I by any focus with it, to increase its DC?

Thorncrest

 

[Darkness]

Undead are immune to ability damage to physical ability scores (Str/Dex/Con). Thus, golden ice (which does Dex damage) doesn't hurt them.

 

[DM_Matt]

I think I have found a problem here. The feat ToGI in the BoED is a ravage/affliction it effects undead correct? or it does not? If it does then its making ice appear on the outside of the struck victim, because undead would be immune to drain attacks. It description shows that evil victims will feel a chill go thru them. Does that mean non evil dont? Doesnt this ability make ice appear on the outside of victim, or is this ability just made to chill victim with no ice appearing? The description is so short and undetailed it leaves many questions.

If it is not considered a drain attack then why wouldnt the bonus of +4 to all non damaging DC's given by the vow of nonviolence effect the DC of the ToGI? Am I on to something here or just high?

Secondly I have posted the following question before but I still have issue. The 14DC assigned to ToGI is a fort save, the ToGI is not a manufactured spell or component its an effect created by the attacker/touchers own "power of will", so why wouldnt the DC be increased or decreased by the attackers wis, cha or class/feat level? Could I by any focus with it, to increase its DC?

Thorncrest

Taking advantage of broken feats is one thing, but what you keep trying tgo do is take arguably-broken abilities and then bend the rules to make them even more rediculous. At low levels TOGI is off the charts insane, but at least your character pays for it later by it sucking at high levels. TOGI is strong without making up rules to let the save scale and letting it bypass immunities of every sort.

 

[Eremite]

Undead are immune to ability damage to physical ability scores (Str/Dex/Con). Thus, golden ice (which does Dex damage) doesn't hurt them.

This was true until the Book of Egregious Design, oops, Book of Exalted Deeds came out with ravages and afflictions which are specifically stated as being able to damage the ability scores of undead.

What makes it worse is that the holy urine/golden ice ravage, like the others, is also supposed to inflict extra ability damage based on the opponent's Cha bonus.

Suggestion to Thorncrest: don't allow this in your game. I note in the other thread about your group that you have a very "hands-off" style with respect to your players' use of source material but I can tell you that golden ice can be really problematic particularly if you allow the +4 DC and the opponent's Cha bonus to ability score damage. Just say no to the Book of Egregious Design! Join the revolution!

 

[Darkness]

This was true until the Book of Egregious Design, oops, Book of Exalted Deeds came out with ravages and afflictions which are specifically stated as being able to damage the ability scores of undead.

Now, undead are not immune to ability damage to non-physical ability scores (Int/Wis/Cha) - just physical.

Can you point me to where it says in the BoED that ravages/afflictions can damage the physical ability scores of undead? I can't find it on p.34-35.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

Its not my intent to make ToGI broken

WE started a campaign where players were already high level and when reading over the feats I ran across ToGI. Since we are already 10 + levels it rarely takes effect. But my Original player concept was a Monk with VoPoverty, Vopeace, VoNonviolence but he was a undead demon construct evil outsider killer. I thought the ToGI was actual ice appearing on the outside of people, making it hard for them to move, thus it would effect undead. Also since it wasnt actually draining the dex, the +4 from non violence bonus to all spell and spell like ability DC that dont cause damage, thus making it DC18.

Since I started at high level I never considered the campaign destroying effect it would have on low level campaigns. I can imagine all DM's out lawing it until about 8th level or so.

Thorncrest

Taking advantage of broken feats is one thing, but what you keep trying tgo do is take arguably-broken abilities and then bend the rules to make them even more rediculous. At low levels TOGI is off the charts insane, but at least your character pays for it later by it sucking at high levels. TOGI is strong without making up rules to let the save scale and letting it bypass immunities of every sort.