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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Afrodyte" data-source="post: 1436231" data-attributes="member: 8713">If this comes across as curt, I apologize, but don't you think you are presuming a bit much in that statement?  First that my only problem with min-maxing is combat min-maxing, second that I am too stupid to realize that I can limit combat min-maxing by limiting combat, and third that I am too stupid to realize that as DM I have the power to award XP for things besides combat?  My problem with min-maxing is not just combat min-maxing.  I do not dole out combat-based XP anyway, and I rarely do combats at all.  So, min-maxing is not just about combat for me.  I'll give an example of a non-combat situation where min-maxing can ruin the fun.If I have a character, and one of his main issues is the regret he feels for abandoning the woman he loved because of social obligation, it would make me less than happy if a silver-tongued bard (Bluff and Diplomacy maxed out, with feats and spells to enhance it) smoothed things over without my character having to make any decisions or sacrifices.  Or, if my character's lover had some object or information vital to the party, min-maxed bard could use spells to get what he wanted out of her and completely bypass my character dealing with the issue I designed for him.  It'd be the same if he were an NPC.  Of course, if the characters were hired, coerced, or cajoled into reuniting that character with his lover, it's one thing.  But if it isn't, and one of the driving ideas behind the game is forgiveness, then I won't be too happy if it is all just glossed over.Even if the min-maxer's character were a barbarian, there's nothing I can do to prevent that character from turning the encounter with my character's long-lost love into a disaster.  With a maxed Intimidation and a huge sword, my character's lover would probably shun him not because of something he did, but because of what the other player did.  Indeed, said character might just kill her and be done with it.  If said character were anything besides Neutral or Chaotic Evil, I can give an XP penalty, but sometimes min-maxers even take alignment into consideration.  Granted, I can say "no evil characters," but that rule would only be made to keep the min-maxer from playing it like that, which hampers the other players in the group.</blockquote>

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