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<blockquote data-quote="jester47" data-source="post: 1436377" data-attributes="member: 2238">Nope, we don't use point buy.&nbsp; I find that point buy causes more problems than it solves.&nbsp; Mainly it invites min/maxing to come and sit down with you at the table.&nbsp; I did use point buy until I started seeing the same numbers over and over again.&nbsp; Bepending on the point buy ammount, there are certain combos of numbers that allow for a optimised character.&nbsp;&nbsp; When you keep seeing the same numbers that means that your players are in a mode of thought that is dangerously close to min/maxing.&nbsp; No, we use: state race, state class, roll 4d6 drop lowest in order of stats, total stat bonus must be +2 or better or the set gets thrown out and you have to roll them again.&nbsp; Also, if the stats after racial adjustment make the character unplayable (sorc with a cha of 8) they get to reroll.&nbsp; Draconian?&nbsp; yes.&nbsp; Keeps players from tweaking thier character? You betcha.&nbsp; Do the players like it?&nbsp; Anyone who has tried it has not gone back.&nbsp; And no I am not talking just combat min maxing.&nbsp; Take for example the Diplomat character.&nbsp; We have all seen it.&nbsp; The player with a half elf puts a high stat in cha.&nbsp; (for calculation purposes, lets say its an 18)&nbsp; Puts four ranks in Diplomacy, 4 in bluff, 4 in Sense Motive, 4 in Knowledge (nobility and royalty).&nbsp; He graduates the character to second level.&nbsp; Add one to all the skills.&nbsp; He now gets synergy bonuses to his diplomacy.&nbsp; diplo 5 + syn 6 + cha 4 + race 2.&nbsp; Thats a +17 at second level to any diplomacy checks.&nbsp; That causes problems.&nbsp; Cause now for me as a DM to really make a challenge for that player I have to make all the diplomacy checks between 26 and 31.&nbsp; If its an opposed check this skews the NPC balance which would be important to me if I custom fit everything to my players (which I don't) and any NPC that I might randomly pull out of a book has no chance.&nbsp; On influencing people's attitudes, this is a character that can turn a hostile NPC into a friendly one 50% of the time.&nbsp; At 2nd level.&nbsp; They can make the character indifferent 75% of the time.&nbsp; 25% of the time they can make the hostile character friendly.&nbsp; The player has essentially lost any challenge the game had WRT diplomacy at 2nd level.&nbsp; Combat is not nearly as bad.&nbsp; Now if the player said &quot;half elf rogue&quot; and then rolled 12, 11, 13, 14, 15, CHA 18, then its a random roll, and in my book, and my house rules, they are free to make the mega diplomat cause that character is fairly rare and was rolled, not designed.&nbsp; I don't feel I have to bump up my NPCs cause it was random, which is somthing that will give the player hours of enjoyment (&quot;I use my diplomacy on the chaimberlain!&nbsp; And these stats were random!&quot;). And I won't see the same trick everytime that player makes a character.&nbsp; Aaron.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="jester47, post: 1436377, member: 2238"] Nope, we don't use point buy. I find that point buy causes more problems than it solves. Mainly it invites min/maxing to come and sit down with you at the table. I did use point buy until I started seeing the same numbers over and over again. Bepending on the point buy ammount, there are certain combos of numbers that allow for a optimised character. When you keep seeing the same numbers that means that your players are in a mode of thought that is dangerously close to min/maxing. No, we use: state race, state class, roll 4d6 drop lowest in order of stats, total stat bonus must be +2 or better or the set gets thrown out and you have to roll them again. Also, if the stats after racial adjustment make the character unplayable (sorc with a cha of 8) they get to reroll. Draconian? yes. Keeps players from tweaking thier character? You betcha. Do the players like it? Anyone who has tried it has not gone back. And no I am not talking just combat min maxing. Take for example the Diplomat character. We have all seen it. The player with a half elf puts a high stat in cha. (for calculation purposes, lets say its an 18) Puts four ranks in Diplomacy, 4 in bluff, 4 in Sense Motive, 4 in Knowledge (nobility and royalty). He graduates the character to second level. Add one to all the skills. He now gets synergy bonuses to his diplomacy. diplo 5 + syn 6 + cha 4 + race 2. Thats a +17 at second level to any diplomacy checks. That causes problems. Cause now for me as a DM to really make a challenge for that player I have to make all the diplomacy checks between 26 and 31. If its an opposed check this skews the NPC balance which would be important to me if I custom fit everything to my players (which I don't) and any NPC that I might randomly pull out of a book has no chance. On influencing people's attitudes, this is a character that can turn a hostile NPC into a friendly one 50% of the time. At 2nd level. They can make the character indifferent 75% of the time. 25% of the time they can make the hostile character friendly. The player has essentially lost any challenge the game had WRT diplomacy at 2nd level. Combat is not nearly as bad. Now if the player said "half elf rogue" and then rolled 12, 11, 13, 14, 15, CHA 18, then its a random roll, and in my book, and my house rules, they are free to make the mega diplomat cause that character is fairly rare and was rolled, not designed. I don't feel I have to bump up my NPCs cause it was random, which is somthing that will give the player hours of enjoyment ("I use my diplomacy on the chaimberlain! And these stats were random!"). And I won't see the same trick everytime that player makes a character. Aaron. [/QUOTE]

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