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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ph0rk" data-source="post: 1438895" data-attributes="member: 16266">What exactly can a dwarf fighter with an 8 int do outside combat? That single skill point per round does -not- go far, and it is almost silly to suggest that this particular character be competent outside combat.That isn't to say the player has an excuse not to participate outside combat, and it also isn't an excuse to whine when he misses; these are traits of a jerk, not an optimizer.I think the argument "making a character that is good in combat and little else" as a negative of min-maxing is a fallacy: picking a plain fighter and sticking with the class does not sound at all like min-maxing to me, but you end up with what you just described, a combat oriented character (a fighter-type paragon? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />) that can't sneak, pick locks, tumble, or hob-nob with royalty.A plain barbarian ends up much the same way really, though they may end up with some wilderness skill and intimidate.At what point does the min-maxed character become 'well rounded'?  2 skills at max rank? 3?  If this sounds pedantic, it is to a certain degree, but it is the wishy-washy nature of definition I'm trying to point out.about uber feat-stackage:in most cases using core material, the uber stackage isn't that uber.  If a DM allows builder books and the like, that is their perogative, and IMHO they shouldn't complain about the use of those feats they allowed.sticking strictly core, or core+psi (another grumble for another time) even the uberest of uber feat chains pay a heavy price, and really aren't all that uber.If you do not agree, please post the combos that have been game-breaking for you (core combos, no builder books) in this or another thread -- because I don't think it is possible to tweak a character using core rules to the point they outshine others in every instance.If players are not using core rules, or the players are ignoring their stats, or cheating, ultimately the onus of responsibility in these cases lies with the DM.  There is flavor, and then there is fluff.  Players seem to forget it is a team excercise, and focusing overmuch on non-teamplay elements is a detraction from the enjoyment of others.  An occasional phobia is one thing, a complete lack of combat abilities, arcane or mundane, is another.If you aren't thinking about your role in the party, then you are probably thinking about me more than we.</blockquote>

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