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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elf Witch" data-source="post: 1439360" data-attributes="member: 9037">First of all maybe we don't share the same defination of min/maxing to me a min/maxer only picks feats and skills and classes for how powerful it will make him the concept is how powerful the character can be so he in 3E took a level of ranger and a level of barbarian to get the benefits of thoses classes and if he took a prestige class it did not have anything to do with the game world or his character other than how powerful he would be.  An example I saw of this was in one game where the person using a combo of classes and pRCs and I think a few magic items in a Forgotten Realm game had a will save at seventh level of +26 I don't remember exactly how he did it but I remember that my straight cleric wanted to cast a spell on him to stop him from killing an innnocent and I could not do it he had no trouble making the will save because he could not fail it. Everyone in that game built characters like that noone but me played a straight class and the word superfluous is the best word to describe any character I played. To challenge the party the game was lethal this seventh level party could handle CR threats that would challenge a 15 level party. These guys knew how to build a character that was nigh unstopable. I finally gave in and they built me a monk/assassin that was min/maxed with all the right feats and skills and the stats put in all the right places and I became this death dealing machine. I lost intrest in the game and not because there was no role playing but because there was no challenge in it for me things became to easy.I have played a fighter who had a high int and I took a lot of cross class skills she did more than fight which she was also good at. I gave her a lot of knowledge skills in planes and religion and arcana the party did not have a wizard or a cleric and she provided quite well any thing we needed to know about these things. So a fighter does not have to be a one trick pony. And yes I put my highest stat an 18 in INT and my next which was a 14 in STR. Which to the min/maxers I know made no sense but the character rocked she was fun to play and she held her own in battle.As for your last comment about fluff and team work and so on. Of course it is rather lame to make a character that does not contribute at all what I call a lame duck. To make a character that cannot add anything to the group is silly what is the point. But there is often disagreements on what is considered a lame duck. For example I played a sorcerer built on a 29 point buy for three years my son and his friends who are huge powergamers could never understand why she was fun for me to play and why my main group liked the character so much because she had only one real offensive spell and that was magic missle she was designed not as a combat mage but as arcane spy/ party support. Tp the powergamers she was a lame duck. But she did so much the party rogue needed to scout something no problem invisability. We needed to see what was over that ridge clairvoyance. All the fighters were taking captive and we lost our things no armor oh how about mage armor. I can't tell you how uesful she was even though she was not raining fireballs down on the enemy.</blockquote>

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