Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Toward a Theory of 6th Edition
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7262760" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Magic is ubiquitous among classes in 5e, sure: every class has supernatural powers, no exceptions - Ki is explicitly magical, Fighters & Rogues can cast spells, Totem Barbarian use them as rituals and their rage comes from a supernatural source. But it's not ubiquitous in the wider world, unless you assume character classes are - magic items are comparatively rare, supernatural monsters or the DM's to place in whatever frequency he sees fit, or choose not to use at all. Then your opinion is at odds with the facts. In 4e, there were several Sources, only one of which, 'Martial,' was explicitly not supernatural, and none of the only-4 classes that depended solely on that source was able to fill the 'Controller' Role, so the non-supernatural side was still pointedly under-served. Still, it was the high-water mark for D&D as far as support for and balance of non-supernatural PCs was concerned. (For the record, late 3.5, with the highly-customizable, non-supernatural fighter and Rogue in the PH, followed by the Knight, Scout and the beefed-up-fighter Warblade just before the ed closed, came in second in that sense, and 5e, with /every/ class having some supernatural powers, and only 3 having sub-classes nominally free of them, with all of those laser-focused on DPR, has arguably defined a new low in that regard.)</p><p></p><p> I think it's more a circle than a straight-line trend. In the early game, when a sub-class called for some ability, spells tended to be thrown at it to open up competence - thus spellcatsing rangers, for instance. Similarly, things that could reasonably be accomplished without magic, like lopping off a limb with a slashing weapon for example, could, for convenience, I suppose, only be accomplished with a magic item - the sword of sharpness, for the same example. As the game evolved through to 4e, non-magical options became more and more capable, and magic & non-magic, alike, became less niche-protected. </p><p></p><p>5e has returned to a focus on PC magical abilities as their prime defining and most significant practical abilities. Skills aren't gone, but they aren't niche-protected 'special abilities' like they were for the Thief in the classic game, nor able to do much that stands out; non-magical combat is back to just doling out damage as rapidly as possible. FWIW.</p><p></p><p>It very much depends on what you mean by 'low magic.' High-magic, spellcasting PCs adventuring in a low-magic world with few to no magic items to be found? 5e works fine. A low/no-magic party, regardless of world? Not s'much.</p><p></p><p> You could reduce magic on the party side by removing full-casters entirely, sure, leaving you with half- and third- casters, and every class still able to use magic, just not as powerful magic. You could reduce the availability of magic by removing cantrip & rituals, Warlocks, & 1/2 & 1/3-casters and substantially reducing spell slots for full casters (1 to 3 slots of a level equal to their highest-level spell, only). Or you could re-focus magic to be more genre-conformal by removing slots, instead, but keeping rituals, cantrips, and, for the most potent casters, the odd attack cantrip at full power.</p><p></p><p>What you can't do is remove magic entirely from the game and still have it function, the very few, very limited, overly focused non-supernatural PC options just aren't up to it.</p><p></p><p>The Template idea might very well help with that, giving PCs another source of missing out-of-combat and support contributions.</p><p></p><p> 'Linking,' if I follow, could work better than Stacking (which has more potential for abuse).</p><p></p><p>For instance, you could have three puzzle-pieces - the existing Background & Class, plus a Template - but focus each one on a single pillar. Class could provide the character's combat-pillar focus/role & effectiveness. Background could provide his social status, context, and interaction capabilities. Template, then, by default (and 'woodsman' serves as a good example, here), could provide his competence & theme in the exploration pillar. </p><p></p><p> Sounds interesting...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7262760, member: 996"] Magic is ubiquitous among classes in 5e, sure: every class has supernatural powers, no exceptions - Ki is explicitly magical, Fighters & Rogues can cast spells, Totem Barbarian use them as rituals and their rage comes from a supernatural source. But it's not ubiquitous in the wider world, unless you assume character classes are - magic items are comparatively rare, supernatural monsters or the DM's to place in whatever frequency he sees fit, or choose not to use at all. Then your opinion is at odds with the facts. In 4e, there were several Sources, only one of which, 'Martial,' was explicitly not supernatural, and none of the only-4 classes that depended solely on that source was able to fill the 'Controller' Role, so the non-supernatural side was still pointedly under-served. Still, it was the high-water mark for D&D as far as support for and balance of non-supernatural PCs was concerned. (For the record, late 3.5, with the highly-customizable, non-supernatural fighter and Rogue in the PH, followed by the Knight, Scout and the beefed-up-fighter Warblade just before the ed closed, came in second in that sense, and 5e, with /every/ class having some supernatural powers, and only 3 having sub-classes nominally free of them, with all of those laser-focused on DPR, has arguably defined a new low in that regard.) I think it's more a circle than a straight-line trend. In the early game, when a sub-class called for some ability, spells tended to be thrown at it to open up competence - thus spellcatsing rangers, for instance. Similarly, things that could reasonably be accomplished without magic, like lopping off a limb with a slashing weapon for example, could, for convenience, I suppose, only be accomplished with a magic item - the sword of sharpness, for the same example. As the game evolved through to 4e, non-magical options became more and more capable, and magic & non-magic, alike, became less niche-protected. 5e has returned to a focus on PC magical abilities as their prime defining and most significant practical abilities. Skills aren't gone, but they aren't niche-protected 'special abilities' like they were for the Thief in the classic game, nor able to do much that stands out; non-magical combat is back to just doling out damage as rapidly as possible. FWIW. It very much depends on what you mean by 'low magic.' High-magic, spellcasting PCs adventuring in a low-magic world with few to no magic items to be found? 5e works fine. A low/no-magic party, regardless of world? Not s'much. You could reduce magic on the party side by removing full-casters entirely, sure, leaving you with half- and third- casters, and every class still able to use magic, just not as powerful magic. You could reduce the availability of magic by removing cantrip & rituals, Warlocks, & 1/2 & 1/3-casters and substantially reducing spell slots for full casters (1 to 3 slots of a level equal to their highest-level spell, only). Or you could re-focus magic to be more genre-conformal by removing slots, instead, but keeping rituals, cantrips, and, for the most potent casters, the odd attack cantrip at full power. What you can't do is remove magic entirely from the game and still have it function, the very few, very limited, overly focused non-supernatural PC options just aren't up to it. The Template idea might very well help with that, giving PCs another source of missing out-of-combat and support contributions. 'Linking,' if I follow, could work better than Stacking (which has more potential for abuse). For instance, you could have three puzzle-pieces - the existing Background & Class, plus a Template - but focus each one on a single pillar. Class could provide the character's combat-pillar focus/role & effectiveness. Background could provide his social status, context, and interaction capabilities. Template, then, by default (and 'woodsman' serves as a good example, here), could provide his competence & theme in the exploration pillar. Sounds interesting... [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Toward a Theory of 6th Edition
Top