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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9680356" data-attributes="member: 7026594">One of my gaming white whales is to nail down a quick and playable initiative/action system which still incorporates some elements of real world and narrative combat which D&D traditionally fails to capture, or stumbles and gets slow and awkward when it tries to.AD&D 1E has a famously unplayable or at least very difficult system, but it does try to emulate simultaneous action better than any other edition, using side-based initiative, but including the possibility for an archer on the losing side to get a shot off while enemies are trying to close to melee, for an attack to interrupt a spellcaster even if the caster's side won initiative, or for a weapon with a longer reach to strike first when combatants are closing to melee.  Subsequent editions largely abandon any attempt to incorporate these elements into the rules.A couple of examples of real world and fictional actions which D&D usually has trouble emulating:1. Two combatants start at opposite sides of a (say, 20' to 30') room and rush to melee each other or race to an objective in the middle, meeting at that middle roughly at the same time.  In most editions of D&D one will get there first, potentially running across the entire room and meeting his foe at the foe's starting point if they win initiative.2. An archer shoots a moving figure in the middle of its move, either when it's in a gap between cover or when it's partway closed the distance trying to engage the archer or another foe in melee.In practice most versions of D&D have a more Chess-like movement pattern.  One piece at a time making its complete move, almost no matter how far, with, apart from Opportunity Attacks or Readied actions in some editions, no interruptions. While most of us are very accustomed to it, if I step back and look at it I'm often dissatisfied with its artificiality and the lack of ability for opponents to respond to movement even from a relatively far distance like 30'.So, this brings me to toying with various systems to try to capture simultaneous movement/action better.Here are a couple I was just messing with recently. Both are in rough draft form and I'm open to feedback, criticism, suggestions, etc.Segment initiative concept:This one looks simpler, but in practice might require segment by segment movement for each combatant, which could just be a little too slow and cumbersome.<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">GM clarifies scene, positions, weapons in hand/at the ready, etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">GM determines and players declare intent, specifically including retreats, spells, missile or melee attacks, and miscellaneous other actions.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Each side rolls a d6 (or a d10?). The side with the lower roll has the chance to act first, HOWEVER, spells add their speed factor (simplification: level?) to that individual character’s initiative, and if caster is struck with an attack or fails a saving throw before their total count, the spell is ruined and lost.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">TIES: If initiative is tied, actions are simultaneous. QUICKER WEAPONS: If two foes are already engaged in melee and wish to attack each other, the shorter weapon reacts quicker and may attack first.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Attacks are immediate if the attacker is shooting at a target within range and line of sight, or if making a melee attack at an enemy within 5’. If either party must move first, delay the attack by 1 initiative segment per 5’ of movement. REACH RULE: If an attacker wishes to attack an enemy who has not yet attacked but can see them and has a weapon with longer reach in hand, the defender may forego acting later in the round to interrupt and take their own attack(s) on the assailant immediately before taking those attacks.</li> </ol>Phased initiative concept:This one looks more complex but movement is just in two parts, rather than potentially more.  This one is modeled/derived on the Chainmail and 1E AD&D systems more.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM clarifies scene, positions, weapons in hand/at the ready, etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">GM determines and players declare intent, specifically including retreats, spells, missile or melee attacks, and miscellaneous other actions.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Each side rolls a d6. In each phase, the winning goes first, but if people from both sides are acting in a given phase, both sides act in that phase before moving on to the next phase. On a tie, actions are simultaneous. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Missile phase 1: If not engaged in melee and not moving this round, anyone with a missile weapon at the ready may fire.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Melee phase 1: Anyone with a weapon readied and already engaged with a foe may attack.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Movement phase 1: Anyone moving may move half their speed, other misc actions which don’t require movement take place. If you didn’t have a weapon readied for the previous two phases, you may ready it now.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magic phase 1: If not moving, casters may cast spells (including from scrolls), characters may activate magic items (including drinking potions or feeding them to an unconscious character within arm’s reach).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Missile phase 2: Anyone with a missile who didn’t fire in phase 1.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Melee phase 2: Anyone who had to draw or pick up a melee weapon, and/or who is moving AND attacking and is now engaged with a foe may attack. REACH RULE: If defender has a longer weapon and has not attacked yet, they attack first if they are not performing a different action.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Movement phase 2: Anyone who didn’t choose to remain stationary may move the other half of their speed. MOVE & MISC ACTION RULE: Characters who wished to move before performing a miscellaneous action perform the action now.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magic Phase 2: Any character who wished to move and activate a magic item (including drinking a potion or feeding one to an unconscious character) does so now.</li> </ul>When I look at these, of course, I do wonder if the juice is necessarily worth the squeeze.  It is a game, and often keeping it simpler results in a more fun experience, even if we can't simulate certain things.Wandering DMs just did an <a href="https://www.youtube.com/live/AtYfx7PwX_s?si=m2D-waq6KiPGSyi_" target="_blank">episode on initiative </a>yesterday, and Paul and Dan favor just about the simplest possible system- DM and players each roll a d6 every round, and play proceeds clockwise around the table with each person (or side, for the DM) doing their full round (action and movement) all at once in turn.  Dan has experimented with declaration of missiles and spells first and with them happening first if sides haven't engaged yet, and with reach weapons giving interrupt attacks, but finds that he and his players continually forget those rules and don't like the delays involving declarations.<a href="https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/195355/the-nightmares-underneath" target="_blank">The Nightmares Underneath</a>, one of my pet systems in the last year or two, also uses a relatively simple system.  Each PC makes a Dex check for initiative (or automatically go last if surprised or encumbered).  Monsters and NPCs have a fixed Speed score instead of rolling.   Characters act in descending order, like WotC editions of D&D, but may take certain actions out of sequence, as described below:This latter system has a lot of appeal to me as individual initiative systems go, but obviously it's still mostly one person goes, than another.</blockquote>

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