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<blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 8347558" data-attributes="member: 45197"><p>Hiya!</p><p></p><p>...I'm not seeing the problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, don't see the problem. Well, unless the GM is in the habit of coddling the Players so they don't loose and get their feelings hurt or ego bruised. The DM isn't being a "jerk" by doing what a DM should do...be a neutral arbiter, as you put it. The only time I see this happen (or, rather, read/hear about it) is when the Players are <em>expecting</em> to win all the time or "usually, if it's not an important 'thing' in the game" (re: not if it's a random encounter, or a fight they picked with an obviously...or supposedly...weaker foe, etc).</p><p></p><p></p><p>"But that's what my character would do!" IS a valid excuse for the player... "being a jerk", as you put it. It's just that I don't think a Player is being a jerk if he has his PC do something that messes up another Players Character... <em>IF IT MAKES SENSE AND EVERYONE AGREES!</em> Meaning, if the PC is known for absolutely destroying any thief/brigand due to an intense hatred of thievery...and another PC "accidently" steals from the party...well...sorry to Mr.Lightfingers there, but them's the breaks. But, if the Player suddenly just decides "I kill him. I don't like thieves", and, up until that point, that PC has never hinted at any particular hatred of thieves...that's when we have a problem. Everyone at the table will know that the Player is being a jerk for attacking another PC for "stealing a 50gp gem from the party" for who knows what reason.</p><p></p><p>Same sort of logic for the DM. If the DM is known for not running a world that has "consequences", but suddenly decides "Yeah, you killed two guards...even though they attacked you first. Everyone now has a bounty on their heads and assassins and adventurers are going to come after you...", when the group has killed dozens of guards over the campaign from various other towns/cities with no real consequences...that's a problem. The DM is being a 'jerk'.</p><p></p><p>But, a DM who is consistent, fair and actually is ALWAYS a "neutral arbiter"? Not being a jerk when he knows a TPK is coming...and so do the Players. Sometimes you get the owlbear...sometimes the owlbear gets you.</p><p></p><p>Now, that said, if the group are all friends, there is nothing wrong with the DM feeling bad and saying "Dudes, you're all going to die. Because [insert behind-the-scenes info]. Do you want to play it out as is and just see if MAYBE you can live? Or do you want to just get captured or something and we can do that?". There is nothing in the rules that says "being fair" as a DM means never talking to your players about what's going on, what's almost guaranteed to happen, and getting their input. I have done this on very rare occasions myself. But my players know me, my DM'ing style, and their own preferences. They usually opt for the "Lets just roll dice and game it out...see how many we can take with them!", because they KNOW that I wasn't "being a jerk" or that I was "out to get them" or "being unfair"*. Only a handful of times have they said "Yeah...lets have a do-over" or "Yeah...how about captured? I don't want to stop playing this PC and story. I want to see how it turns out".</p><p></p><p><em>EDIT: To clarify, they think this even if I *didn't</em> say "Dudes, ....". If I just played it and they TPK'ed, they don't think I'm being a jerk, because they know I <em>could</em> have cheezed it and had the completely evil bad guys 'capture them'...but I've done that once before. Man...did they feel cheated! They were annoyed that I "kept them alive"...they knew they all should have died, but I had them get KO'ed in stead. They felt cheated for sure. Absolutely cheated. So I've never done that again! Just a bit more "FYI" there. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>^_^</p><p></p><p>Paul L. Ming</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pming, post: 8347558, member: 45197"] Hiya! ...I'm not seeing the problem. Again, don't see the problem. Well, unless the GM is in the habit of coddling the Players so they don't loose and get their feelings hurt or ego bruised. The DM isn't being a "jerk" by doing what a DM should do...be a neutral arbiter, as you put it. The only time I see this happen (or, rather, read/hear about it) is when the Players are [I]expecting[/I] to win all the time or "usually, if it's not an important 'thing' in the game" (re: not if it's a random encounter, or a fight they picked with an obviously...or supposedly...weaker foe, etc). "But that's what my character would do!" IS a valid excuse for the player... "being a jerk", as you put it. It's just that I don't think a Player is being a jerk if he has his PC do something that messes up another Players Character... [I]IF IT MAKES SENSE AND EVERYONE AGREES![/I] Meaning, if the PC is known for absolutely destroying any thief/brigand due to an intense hatred of thievery...and another PC "accidently" steals from the party...well...sorry to Mr.Lightfingers there, but them's the breaks. But, if the Player suddenly just decides "I kill him. I don't like thieves", and, up until that point, that PC has never hinted at any particular hatred of thieves...that's when we have a problem. Everyone at the table will know that the Player is being a jerk for attacking another PC for "stealing a 50gp gem from the party" for who knows what reason. Same sort of logic for the DM. If the DM is known for not running a world that has "consequences", but suddenly decides "Yeah, you killed two guards...even though they attacked you first. Everyone now has a bounty on their heads and assassins and adventurers are going to come after you...", when the group has killed dozens of guards over the campaign from various other towns/cities with no real consequences...that's a problem. The DM is being a 'jerk'. But, a DM who is consistent, fair and actually is ALWAYS a "neutral arbiter"? Not being a jerk when he knows a TPK is coming...and so do the Players. Sometimes you get the owlbear...sometimes the owlbear gets you. Now, that said, if the group are all friends, there is nothing wrong with the DM feeling bad and saying "Dudes, you're all going to die. Because [insert behind-the-scenes info]. Do you want to play it out as is and just see if MAYBE you can live? Or do you want to just get captured or something and we can do that?". There is nothing in the rules that says "being fair" as a DM means never talking to your players about what's going on, what's almost guaranteed to happen, and getting their input. I have done this on very rare occasions myself. But my players know me, my DM'ing style, and their own preferences. They usually opt for the "Lets just roll dice and game it out...see how many we can take with them!", because they KNOW that I wasn't "being a jerk" or that I was "out to get them" or "being unfair"*. Only a handful of times have they said "Yeah...lets have a do-over" or "Yeah...how about captured? I don't want to stop playing this PC and story. I want to see how it turns out". [I]EDIT: To clarify, they think this even if I *didn't[/I] say "Dudes, ....". If I just played it and they TPK'ed, they don't think I'm being a jerk, because they know I [I]could[/I] have cheezed it and had the completely evil bad guys 'capture them'...but I've done that once before. Man...did they feel cheated! They were annoyed that I "kept them alive"...they knew they all should have died, but I had them get KO'ed in stead. They felt cheated for sure. Absolutely cheated. So I've never done that again! Just a bit more "FYI" there. :) ^_^ Paul L. Ming [/QUOTE]
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