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<blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1354889" data-attributes="member: 5777">Invisible opponent present? sure, within a few feet, and you dont know exactly where just that they are there. That is a far cry from, '5 minutes ago the npc passed across this flat stone leaving absolutely no tracks and entered that door over there' One is a bit more exact, can you guess which?A lot of people feel that tumble is too strong and should be based more off of some skill of the opponent, opposed rolls even. Strange concept right?15 ranks of diplomacy? you are jumping from low levels up to high levels? that same character probably has a good charisma plus some sort of magical item. Plus even then it will still be difficult according to the rules. So where was the problem again?And these people (those without scent) would be represented by high level characters with lots of inherant skill. So that does nothing for your case.I think take 20 is iffy but probably allowable, there is no real penalty for failing, so the check would take 20x as long as a normal check. This makes sense in logical fashion because the character is going over everything very carefully. Although the rules on tracking are a bit wonky so it could go either way.Like I have said repeatidly, it comes down to this:If there are no modifiers that you can put on just from effects of the terrain in question then it is the same as AC being merely a factor of something simple like the type of material you are wearing and nothing else. Same thing. There is a problem with both scenarios.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Scion, post: 1354889, member: 5777"] Invisible opponent present? sure, within a few feet, and you dont know exactly where just that they are there. That is a far cry from, '5 minutes ago the npc passed across this flat stone leaving absolutely no tracks and entered that door over there' One is a bit more exact, can you guess which? A lot of people feel that tumble is too strong and should be based more off of some skill of the opponent, opposed rolls even. Strange concept right? 15 ranks of diplomacy? you are jumping from low levels up to high levels? that same character probably has a good charisma plus some sort of magical item. Plus even then it will still be difficult according to the rules. So where was the problem again? And these people (those without scent) would be represented by high level characters with lots of inherant skill. So that does nothing for your case. I think take 20 is iffy but probably allowable, there is no real penalty for failing, so the check would take 20x as long as a normal check. This makes sense in logical fashion because the character is going over everything very carefully. Although the rules on tracking are a bit wonky so it could go either way. Like I have said repeatidly, it comes down to this: If there are no modifiers that you can put on just from effects of the terrain in question then it is the same as AC being merely a factor of something simple like the type of material you are wearing and nothing else. Same thing. There is a problem with both scenarios. [/QUOTE]

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