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<blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 6188711" data-attributes="member: 23484">As long as there are some rules, then the characters with that ability need to have a meaningful advantage over characters without the ability. Tracking risks losing that. It may be that an automatic +5 difficulty for the untrained will be reasonable (the precise details of the math depend on the final decisions), or it may be that the ability simply isn't there.COmpare the current rules for trip and disarm.Trip is an ability available to some fighters.Disarm is an (implicit) opposed strength check, with inconclusive guidelines about who can pick up dropped objects when.**Clarification: the current testpack seems to have removed references to disarming in combat, so I have to use the last testpack's guidelines. Hence &quot;implicit&quot;.In previous editions, training in both of those might have been managed with feats. I'm fine with the difference, but once Trip has the regulated place, it feels cheap to allow anyone to trip in combat -- and unfair to the player who invests in that option.&nbsp; And I accept that that may be a &quot;trick&quot; that is only available to some fighters. I like the previous openness to disarm, but I want clear guidelines about how it can be effected by the capable, and what is being measured. With no guidelines at all, it becomes a STR or DEX check vs. STR, I'd say, and that the disarming person can hold the weapon if they have a free hand. Easy, an adjudication on the fly that doesn't need formal rules. (and this is given as an example).But once rules are in place, then there has to be a reason to build a character towards the stated goals, and not let it be available generally, particularly when no member of a party has invested in the skill.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kobold Stew, post: 6188711, member: 23484"] As long as there are some rules, then the characters with that ability need to have a meaningful advantage over characters without the ability. Tracking risks losing that. It may be that an automatic +5 difficulty for the untrained will be reasonable (the precise details of the math depend on the final decisions), or it may be that the ability simply isn't there. COmpare the current rules for trip and disarm. [I]Trip[/I] is an ability available to some fighters. [I]Disarm[/I] is an (implicit) opposed strength check, with inconclusive guidelines about who can pick up dropped objects when.* *Clarification: the current testpack seems to have removed references to disarming in combat, so I have to use the last testpack's guidelines. Hence "implicit". In previous editions, training in both of those might have been managed with feats. I'm fine with the difference, but once Trip has the regulated place, it feels cheap to allow anyone to trip in combat -- and unfair to the player who invests in that option. And I accept that that may be a "trick" that is only available to some fighters. I like the previous openness to disarm, but I want clear guidelines about how it can be effected by the capable, and what is being measured. With no guidelines at all, it becomes a STR or DEX check vs. STR, I'd say, and that the disarming person can hold the weapon if they have a free hand. Easy, an adjudication on the fly that doesn't need formal rules. (and this is given as an example). But once rules are in place, then there has to be a reason to build a character towards the stated goals, and not let it be available generally, particularly when no member of a party has invested in the skill. [/QUOTE]

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