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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Meatboy" data-source="post: 6016858" data-attributes="member: 40857">Seems like I stired up some thoughts with this topic. But I will try to discuss some of the things that have been brought up and go from there.  I noticed a few times verisimilitude and believability were brought up as reasons why martial classes can't do cool stuff. I tend to agree with Celebrim about the level 5-6 cutoff where those things start to go out the window. The problem is that mundanes don't catch up after this point. They keep getting "better" because their numbers go up but they never really get in game abilities to do more.  I'll bring Batman and the JLA in now because even though he hs no super powers he does have plot power. Because he's written he always ends up being, doing, or having the right thing at the right time. I don't feel that this is a good thing for a game because it would be like the DM "letting" a player win only because they chose a fighter or a rogue not because they could beat the BBEG. I don't think the BBEG should fall over shouting "Swords! My one weakness..." I think level plays a huge part in this. Invisibility was already tallked about and I am totaly ok with that being a thing but at the same time why does the rogue or ranger only get something equivilant 10 levels later. (at least in 3.x, sorry thats the system I'm most familiar with so will end up referencing it the most.)Characters should get powers at roughly the same time sure caster will need to have or prepare said spell but the mundane should just be able to do it.  Bye mid to late levels the "mundanes" should be miles ahead of what they should realistically be able to acomplish. My Answer.Probably the biggest thing holding back the mundane classes are the fictional archetypes that we get exposed to in books. In older editions 20th level mundanes were Conan, Aragorn, Gandalf, King Arthur and their fictional contemporaries. The problem here is the fact that reading the books and then seeing what is available for 20th level characters in DnD there is  huge gap between what happens in the books and what PCs can do in game. Like Conan or Aragorn have trouble combating a dozen mooks in the books and rarely ever have to fight "monsters" ei things with DR or special powers. 6 or 7 level maybe. They are the centre peices of epic events but they don't do epic things, at least not in a DnD sense.But thats just an example lets not make this about what level fictional characters are... We need to look elsewhere for our epic heroes. Either at the past to figures like Hercules, Perseus and other figures of myth. Or east to Asia they seem to have no problems having warriors who can slice through arrows, bullets, walls, castles, armies, or pretty much do a whole slew of crazy awesome things.  I would really like to, as a character be able to singlehandedly assault a castle, use stones fired by catapaults as stepping stones to reach the top of the wall and in a single slice cleave all surrounding enemies (maybe cut the top off a tower and have it topple into the courtyard below for good measure.) Seeing that griffon rides circle overhead pick up a fallen bow and quiver, then load ALL the arrows into at once and shoot the eyes out of the beats and riders alike. To top it all off when the enemy wizard blasts a spell at me I'd like to be able to knock it back at him like my blade suddenly became some messed up kind of baseball bat.When I can do something like that at level 20 I think the mundanes can then stand side beside with casters and know they have earned their spot and not just been some tag along.</blockquote>

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