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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GreyICE" data-source="post: 6018497" data-attributes="member: 6684526">The fact is though, it did create martial classes that truly felt epic.  The Fighter, the Rogue, the Ranger, the Warlord, each one of them felt epic.  Fighter- Could hold monsters on him, period.  - By Paragon Tier was unbelievably sticky, and capable of taking all but the hardest hits- Had multiple features that could come very close to winning combat on their own.This felt Epic.  The fighter just felt like the sort of class that could go toe to toe with a dragon.  Maybe not the HIGHEST DAMAGE, but very high damage combined with a great effect on the battlefield.Ranger- Unbelievably high damage- No, seriously, rangers had the highest damage expressions of any classRogue- Huge damage- Interesting powers, like hiding in the middle of a battlefield, getting combat advantage for all sorts of things- Some fun utility abilitiesWarlord- Could rearrange huge sections of the battlefield- Could enable enemies attacks - Could bring allies back to their feet with a few barked wordsThe lesson is to look at what these classes have that 3E classes didn't.  Battlefield control - the ability to make even dragons respect your class.  Powerful techniques that had strong influence on the outcome of combat.  And interaction with other classes that showed off just how powerful your hero was.In contrast, in 3E, the martial classes were mostly making the same old attacks from 1-20.  Hell, it actually narrowed at high levels (many things at high levels were practically immune to trip, which was one of the fighter's big things at lower levels).  The key is to give people more influence on the battlefield with martial characters.  Let one of them be the 'I hit for big numbers!' class, but when each and every class is the 'I hit for big numbers!' class it gets to be a very boring shtick.  And for the love of god, if you're going to have "I hit for big numbers" don't let the wizard go "I hit for infinity damage, he's dead, cool story about your big numbers bro."</blockquote>

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