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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6018540" data-attributes="member: 4937">I have been trying hard to avoid getting into an argument over whether 4e accomplished its goals, because - while there is pretty good concensus over what 1e, 2e, and 3e each did well or didn't do well - 4e is still a subject over which there just isn't a lot of agreement.  And that lack of agreement still tends to stir up a lot of very passionate opinions.I am glad that for you it feels epic.  But understand, even though I agree about the facts you go on to state, I could hardly think of anything that feels to me less epic than the mundane things that you describe.  In particular, I feel that what you describe is simply the truth that the 4e classes can each contribute to the board gamey tactical game that is at the core of 4e, and that your description of what is epic comes way to close to describing what is useful about knights, castles, and bishops and uses basicly the same sterile gamish language that you would use to describe the effectiveness of those game peices.In particular, when you say something like:I'm just tuning out, because we are coming at the game from such a completely different perspective.  I would argue that the really biggest change isn't to look at what the martial classes gained, but to look at what the rest of the game lost.Honestly, I'm not even that worried about the battlefied per se, nor do I care much for 4e's notions of what the battlefield is.I would love to agree with you in some respect about the positive lessons we could learn about design by inspecting how 4e addressed this question, because it would make this subject far less touchy and far less of a risk that mentioning 4e would derail an interesting thread.   But for me, all the lessons from 4e about how you go about answering the OP's question are negative.  I'm aware that the 4e designers were very much aware of the problem, but for me it's an object lesson in how not to approach the topic.</blockquote>

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