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<blockquote data-quote="Misanthrope Prime" data-source="post: 9630793" data-attributes="member: 6776166">Trans people exist in the real world, but I think our contemporary conception of &quot;gender&quot; and thus &quot;transgender&quot; doesn't necessarily exist in fantasy worlds. It's kind of a bugbear of mine when it comes to fantasy, where they just assume that because the society has both men and women it also must have developed the works of Judith Butler at some point.Like, take the Thai &quot;kathoey&quot; or &quot;ladyboy&quot;. It's a real, extant gender expression that is either outside of or between the cisgender identity as it is known in both western and Thai culture... but &quot;kathoey&quot; do not exist in American culture, and in an American context they would be pigeonholed not into &quot;cisman&quot; or &quot;ciswoman&quot;, but &quot;transwoman&quot; or &quot;nonbinary&quot;, which do not exactly encapsulate the specific cultural experience of that particular gender.I think it's right to assume that non-binary genders exist in all cultures, and that it is possible to move between one or more of those genders, but I don't think calling these genders (or characters with these gender expressions) &quot;transwomen&quot; or &quot;transmen&quot; (with all the cultural baggage they entail) is necessarily appropriate, unless the society in question is specifically based on that of the 21st century west.Fantasy writers should be coming up with new genders just as readily as they come up with new races and new languages. It's kind of like how you can have a dark-skinned character with tightly coiled hair and call them &quot;black&quot;, lowercase, but not &quot;Black&quot;, uppercase, unless that ethnic group was specifically subjected to similar historical forces that forged &quot;Blackness&quot; in reality (IE, triangular trade, mass slavery, colonialism, etc) they're about as &quot;Black&quot; as they are &quot;Indonesian&quot; or &quot;Catalan.&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Misanthrope Prime, post: 9630793, member: 6776166"] Trans people exist in the real world, but I think our contemporary conception of "gender" and thus "transgender" doesn't necessarily exist in fantasy worlds. It's kind of a bugbear of mine when it comes to fantasy, where they just assume that because the society has both men and women it also must have developed the works of Judith Butler at some point. Like, take the Thai "kathoey" or "ladyboy". It's a real, extant gender expression that is either outside of or between the cisgender identity as it is known in both western and Thai culture... but "kathoey" do not exist in American culture, and in an American context they would be pigeonholed not into "cisman" or "ciswoman", but "transwoman" or "nonbinary", which do not exactly encapsulate the specific cultural experience of that particular gender. I think it's right to assume that non-binary genders exist in all cultures, and that it is possible to move between one or more of those genders, but I don't think calling these genders (or characters with these gender expressions) "transwomen" or "transmen" (with all the cultural baggage they entail) is necessarily appropriate, unless the society in question is specifically based on that of the 21st century west. Fantasy writers should be coming up with new genders just as readily as they come up with new races and new languages. It's kind of like how you can have a dark-skinned character with tightly coiled hair and call them "black", lowercase, but not "Black", uppercase, unless that ethnic group was specifically subjected to similar historical forces that forged "Blackness" in reality (IE, triangular trade, mass slavery, colonialism, etc) they're about as "Black" as they are "Indonesian" or "Catalan." [/QUOTE]

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