Trap Door Spiders Don't Work

[Rechan]

My players, get ye gone!

I know there are no 4e stats for a trap door spider (shame, that), but I want to mimic such a tactic.

Here's the skinny:

The players are going to come into an ambush. In said ambush is a bugbear strangler who has built a camouflaged hiding space - basically a 2ft deep trench with a lid.

The tactic is to wait til someone passes over, sit up, grab them and drag them inside, and start strangling. This puts the target out of LOS and LOE.

The problem is the economy of actions. I have to:

Stand up (or get a -2 from prone)
Hit the target (Standard)
Pull the target into the Trench (Move, beating their fort)
Drop down on top of the target, letting the lid fall back over the pit (Move? Minor?)

In addition to hitting them with an attack that:

Grabs
Knocks them prone

Even if I added a 'slide 1 square', there's still the issue of stand/fall down.

Not to mention that if I built an encounter power that let the Bugbear do this, if they do not hit, well the entire tactic is buggered. It rests on the single hit + the single round to get the target inside.

Any suggestions?

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm a little confused about the two-foot trench part. Isn't that really small for a bugbear?

I think the way to go is to build an encounter power, like you suggest. Yes, it hinges on the attack roll, but what doesn't? Some points:

- Look to the barghest savager for an exemplary power that allows the creature to shift 3, attack, and shift 3. What you'd have is something like stand up/attack/drop prone.
- Define the attack as an at-will that can be used within the encounter power. Deals some amount of normal damage and includes a grab.
- Allow as a side effect of the encounter power the ability to move the grabbed target as a free action.
- consider whether you want the encounter power to be reliable, or rechargeable. I'd go with rechargeable as he should have some time to reuse it
- how does the bugbear see out of the trap? does he have tremorsense?
- consider dropping other bugbear strangler powers if you're adding these in--obviously you're creating a new type of bugbear

 

[Piratecat]

Infiniti2000 has good advice. In addition, make him an elite and give him an action point.

 

[Rechan]

I'm a little confused about the two-foot trench part. Isn't that really small for a bugbear?

He's gonig to lay on his back underneath it. Although I suppose that if it's 3' deep, that would let him crouch, attack, and drag the person in - this gets rid of the whole 'prone' issue, and there's more than enough room for the bugbear to pin the PC beneath him on the ground.

Since it is an exception based design, I could just handwave the whole 'standup/fall down' moves. Not worrying about it for this monster, this single attack. Not even worrying about the issue of prone-ness. Otherwise, the attack power is going to be rather HUGE.

- consider whether you want the encounter power to be reliable, or rechargeable. I'd go with rechargeable as he should have some time to reuse it

My concern is that what's the point of using it if I can't get the trapdoor trick to work? As PCs will avoid the area now, and it likely would be unwise to just LAY ON SOMEONE in the middle of the battlefield without the cover of his trapdoor.

- how does the bugbear see out of the trap? does he have tremorsense?

When someone runs over the lid, he can hear that. As soon as the lid is cleared (they step off), he leaps up and makes a grab at them from behind. Although probably more of a 'grab you by the ankle and drag you in'.

To give further credence, the trapdoor is built in a snow-covered area, so you can hear people walking/running on the snow.

 

[Rechan]

Infiniti2000 has good advice. In addition, make him an elite and give him an action point.

I'm considering that.

The encounter has two bugbear stranglers in it, so if I make both elite, I want to give them more 'oomph', as well as differentiate them a little. Perhaps instead of grab, their chief attack restrains.

These guys are supposed to be scary as all hell, especially because they come in at the bank ranks after a round of melee.

 

[WalterKovacs]

He's gonig to lay on his back underneath it. Although I suppose that if it's 3' deep, that would let him crouch, attack, and drag the person in - this gets rid of the whole 'prone' issue, and there's more than enough room for the bugbear to pin the PC beneath him on the ground.

That's probable a good way to do it, having the pit be deep/large enough for the bugbear to be inside it "comfortably" and have room to pull someone in. The idea would be giving the bugbear an attack based on being hidden that let's him pop open the trap door, grab, pull someone in and close the trap door as a single standard action (during the suprise round), or to otherwise be able to open the door and attack/pull them in as a standard, and they can close the trap as a minor (using a move action to try a stealth check afterwards to rehide from anyone that didn't see the initial attack. Another option would be after grabbing/pulling the PC into the trap, move action to get out of the hole, and a minor to close the trap door on top of them, perhaps allowing the bugbear to end the turn on top of the trap door.

Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be a monster attack power ... certain items give monsters (and PCs) attack powers or abilities. Thus, if the PCs ever get a chance in the future to prepare for an ambush, they could get a chance to build similar traps. So the idea is that by succesfully hiding in the spider hole, you get a chance to make a suprise attack that pulls someone into the hole with you and grabs them.

 

[Amaroq]

Stand up (or get a -2 from prone)
Hit the target (Standard)
Pull the target into the Trench (Move, beating their fort)
Drop down on top of the target, letting the lid fall back over the pit (Move? Minor?)

In addition to hitting them with an attack that:

Grabs
Knocks them prone

This doesn't feel that hard to me:

He starts crouched, not Prone.
Give him a Minor at-will movement power which allows him to stand from crouched, removing the lid.
Grab is his Standard action.
Pull the target into the Trench, letting the lid fall back over the pit, is his Move.

If he's an Elite, he uses his Action Point to try again if either the Grab or the Pull fails.

He doesn't need to succeed at this: he just needs to threaten to succeed at this. So, for example, once he has somebody grabbed, he "tries to drag you back into the dark pit he rose out of ... roll dice ominously, fail ... He gets you about halfway there: you can sense that if you can't break free of him by his next turn, you're in real trouble ..."

The thing I think you want to address is:

- How does the party reconnect?
- Is there a handle on the outside of the lid?
- What action does it take to open the lid
- from the inside
- from the outside
- Can the inside person get the lid open while grabbed and prone?

Because, of course, everyone's first instinct is going to be to rescue the "captured" character .. especially if you're as ominous as removing the bugbear and the PC's mini from the battle mat when they enter the pit.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Infiniti2000 has good advice. In addition, make him an elite and give him an action point.

Thanks, PC! It's my birthday wish to be an elite and I could use all the action points I can get!

 

[Rechan]

- How does the party reconnect?
- Is there a handle on the outside of the lid?
- What action does it take to open the lid
- from the inside
- from the outside
- Can the inside person get the lid open while grabbed and prone?

The trapdoor lid is just hide stretched over a wooden or bone frame, laid over a pit. Of course, the pit is dug to facilitate the door (so it sits in a groove that acts like a hinge, rather than the door just falling off when opened), and the lid is also set up to become makeshift cover (By standing it up and flipping some stands).

So there's no handle. From the inside, opening it should be no more difficult than just Standing Up, or pushing it with your head. So a PC inside could kick it, or burst out if he was so determiend. So a minor or free action most likely.

Since the ground is snow covered (and the pelt is white), and the pit dug to facilitate the lid, opening it from the outside is more difficult; you have to find the edge, get a good grip, etc. So either a move or a standard action (I've not decided; a move probably).

 

[RangerWickett]

Also, bear in mind that the tactic is less effective since PCs are supposed to be (sorta) evenly matched with their opponents. A real trap door spider, on the other hand, only attacks things that it can easily kill.

So if you want to really emulate the tactic, you'd have a monster 8 levels higher than the party, which pops out, drags the PC in, and munches away with relative impunity. Of course, that's not fun for most folks.

How do you envision the combat playing out?

Do the PCs walk through the woods, and suddenly the last guy in the group is snatched from behind and dragged into a pit? What happens then? Do the other PCs hear and rush to their buddy's aid, or are they also grabbed and dragged into their own pits?

How does this idea sound? There are four bugbears -- two trapdoor lurkers, one druid controller, and one elite skirmisher.

The bugbear family has dug out a tiny tunnel system, with five exits around the battlefield. There's a central burrow chamber underground, about 20 x 30 ft., and several 5-ft. tunnels connect the exits with each other and with the central burrow. Each exit has a trap door that the bugbears can easily open as a minor action from underground, but which has a simple locking latch. Opening it from above requires either a Strength or Thievery check (DC medium) as a move action.

Spotting a trap door should be a high Perception DC.

The druid has a pet raven or something that caws when people draw near, and the contour of the land plus thick brush funnel travelers so they have to pass over the trap door area. When they hear the signal, the trap door bugbears each move to a trap door and prepare to attack. The skirmisher hides at another exit; his purpose is to lure the PCs near to the exits where his fellow bugbears hide. The druid waits in the central burrow to assist.

The skirmisher bugbear has attacks that deal damage, and then slide the target 2 squares through the snow and knock them prone. His tactic is to hit someone and slide them next to the pit. As a secondary attack he has three stink bombs he can throw; they create a burst 1 of poison gas, doing 5 damage a round until the end of the encounter. (This encourages PCs not to stand in one place.)

The trapdoor bugbears have a rechargeable attack: shift 2 squares (can freely climb out of pit), make a grab attack, shift 2 more squares. If the grab attack succeeds, the bugbear has to make a secondary attack vs. Fort to pull the target with him when he shifts away. Give him a high attack bonus, and with the combat advantage (from the PC being prone), he should probably hit.

The trapdoor bugbear has to spend a minor action to open the trap door, and a second one to close it before and after his attack. On following turns, the bugbear tries to drag his prey into the central burrow, where the bugbear druid waits.

The druid can create an area burst 1 thick tangles of thorns as a standard action. It counts as difficult terrain and deals 5 damage for each square you pass through, but he can only have two thornbushes at a time. (He should also have some simple melee attack that doesn't deal too much damage.)

So the way fight goes is, the skirmisher pops up, whomps a PC, and knocks him (prone) next to a trap door. Maybe he action points and knocks another PC near a different pit. Then the bugbears in the tunnels, who have been delaying their turns, pop out, grab the PCs, and hopefully drags at least one PC away.

If the plan works, the skirmisher stays up top to harass the PCs, while the trapdoormen drag their victims into the central chamber. The druid seals off the tunnel so the PC's allies have a harder time coming to rescue him. When the PCs try to open the trap doors, the skirmisher tries to knock them away, or toss a stink bomb over the pit so they're encouraged to find another way in.

Hopefully you end up with the PCs finding one of the other doors, opening it, and flanking the bugbears underground. Of course, if the initial ambush attempt fails, the trapdoormen try to flee underground and pop up from a different direction. They no longer have the element of surprise, though, and the PCs could, if they want, just run away and bypass the encounter.

Hm. If you're willing to be a little railroady, you could have the druid have an encounter power to conjure thornbushes to seal off the trail leading into and out of the kill zone; the PCs could still run away, but it would be an extra nudge to get them to fight.