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<blockquote data-quote="Treantmonklvl20" data-source="post: 7091196" data-attributes="member: 55582">Hi SpoCk0nd0pe.&nbsp; You say in your initial post &quot;Seems like no save, just suck and take (not huge amounts but ok-ish) damage for a lot of creatures&quot;I don't read it that way.&nbsp; To quote the spell:&quot;On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, creature or other visible phenomenon of your choice...&quot;In other words, if the save is successful, nothing happens.&nbsp; Now if the first save fails...&quot;with an Int (investigation) check gainst your spell DC.&nbsp; If the check succeeds, the target realizes the phantasm is an illusion and the spell ends.&quot;Now I agree with you, that if the first save fails, then the investigation check fails, the target is pretty hooped.&nbsp; However, that requires 2 failed &quot;saves&quot; (one is a save, the other an ability check).Getting 2 chances to avoid the effects of one spell is not very good IMO.&nbsp; That said, if both checks are failed, I agree that creativiy can really screw the very unlucky target.Now it is indeed true that both checks are Int checks, so a creature with a low Int is very susceptable, however, that said, imagine a creature with a 10 Int, with no investigation proficency, against a 3rd level caster with a 16 Int.&nbsp; That is a DC of 13 if I'm not mistaken.&nbsp; 2 chances at +0 to defeat DC 13 if we are to crunch the math is 64% in other words, 36% for the spell to stick.&nbsp; If opponent has an 8 Int (-1), that becomes a 58%.&nbsp; If Int is 6 then 51%.&nbsp; In other words, against a very, very low Int creature, it's basically a coin toss for the spell to work at all.&nbsp; That's my concern with the spell.&nbsp; It's not that it's an Int save, it's like an Int save with advantage.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Treantmonklvl20, post: 7091196, member: 55582"] Hi SpoCk0nd0pe. You say in your initial post "Seems like no save, just suck and take (not huge amounts but ok-ish) damage for a lot of creatures" I don't read it that way. To quote the spell: "On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, creature or other visible phenomenon of your choice..." In other words, if the save is successful, nothing happens. Now if the first save fails... "with an Int (investigation) check gainst your spell DC. If the check succeeds, the target realizes the phantasm is an illusion and the spell ends." Now I agree with you, that if the first save fails, then the investigation check fails, the target is pretty hooped. However, that requires 2 failed "saves" (one is a save, the other an ability check). Getting 2 chances to avoid the effects of one spell is not very good IMO. That said, if both checks are failed, I agree that creativiy can really screw the very unlucky target. Now it is indeed true that both checks are Int checks, so a creature with a low Int is very susceptable, however, that said, imagine a creature with a 10 Int, with no investigation proficency, against a 3rd level caster with a 16 Int. That is a DC of 13 if I'm not mistaken. 2 chances at +0 to defeat DC 13 if we are to crunch the math is 64% in other words, 36% for the spell to stick. If opponent has an 8 Int (-1), that becomes a 58%. If Int is 6 then 51%. In other words, against a very, very low Int creature, it's basically a coin toss for the spell to work at all. That's my concern with the spell. It's not that it's an Int save, it's like an Int save with advantage. [/QUOTE]

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