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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Treantmonklvl20" data-source="post: 7092337" data-attributes="member: 55582">OK, so lot's of discussion about Phantasmal Force.  Rather than respond to everyone individually, I think I'll put everything together.So, lots of counterpoints have been made to my last post.  I'm going to list them, if I've gotten any of the context or intent wrong, please let me know.The points I made in my last post were that Phantasmal Force isn't "Seems like no save, just suck and take" as if the saving throw is made, then nothing happens.  Secondly I pointed out that the Int ability check (investigation) allowed after a failed save can also render the spell ineffective, increasing a targets chance of avoiding the bad effects of Phantasmal Force.  I gave an example of a 3rd level wizard against an Int score of 10, 8 and 6, showing that in each case, the target was likely (over 50%) to make either the Save or Ability check.  Here are a list of the counterpoints:1) Hemlock made four points, the first of which was that an ability check is worse than a saving throw, as it can be penalized more easily with abilities like cutting words2) Secondly he points out that even if the ability check is made, it takes an action to perform, meaning that the spell had at least some impact3) Thirdly, he pointed out that higher level wizards are more difficult to save against because of higher DC's, giving the spell a better chance to succeed, CapnZapp later repeated this point4) Fourthly, he provides an example of how Phantasmal Force is more effective than another spell (he used slow as an example) that targets wisdom against an adult dragon 5) Jgsugden points out that the ability check may not even happen most of the time because a creature won't know to attempt it as they believe the phantasm to be real, Spok0nd0pe later repeated the point6) Spok0nd0pe points out that lots of creatures in the MM have Int of 3 or less, and it doesn't seem to improve with higher CR's meaning they have very poor saves against this spell. OK, I think I summed up the points fairly, if you think your point was summed up incorrectly, please correct me.Before I respond one by one, I notice one point I made that wasn't disputed was if the saving throw is made, then nothing happens.  I think this is important, and I'll come back to this, but first I'll address each point:1) There are indeed ways to sabatoge an ability check (cutting words is a good example) though I'm not convinced the difference is all that large.  To be honest, I can't even think of another ability to sabatoge an ability check that doesn't also affect saving throws off the top of my head.  Either way, it's still 2 chances to defeat the spell.2) This is absolutely true.  If the creature makes the ability check, it has still wasted an action.  Not a huge impact for a 2nd level spell, but I agree it's better than nothing.  Still, I'm sure you would agree that the chance for that ability check to defeat the spell reduces its effectiveness to some extent.  Be assured that even if this second chance wasn't offerred, I would not give this spell a great rating for the same reason I don't give spells like Hold Monster a great rating.3) There is no question that at level 13+, the save DC of Wizards becomes increasingly daunting (though auto-saves through Legendary Actions also become more common.  This is why spells like Forcecage make me so happy), though in my guides, I tend not to think about level 13+ when evaluating 2nd level spells.  I tend to assume that most players are like me, playing 1-10 level characters much more often than level 11+ characters.  This may not be the case, but it is the assumption I make.4) I do need to point out here that Slow targets up to 6 creatures (I do realize this was just a random example, but this is an important distinction in how I rate spells - I will elaborate further below).  Though I realize you could have simply selected Hold Monster (a single target wisdom save spell), then again, I rate Hold Monster poorly - and this is why: Hold Monster does nothing if the target makes its save.  My bias against all or nothing spells is well documented, and I spent greater time defending that score than I am defending my position on Phantasmal Force here.  I will rant about this more.5) You likely all know your DM's well (or yourselves if you DM).  I can tell you I have one DM that could almost certainly be convinced that a target of Phantasmal Force might not attempt the ability check, and I have another DM who would give them the ability check every time, no question about it (and if they are reading this, each of them knows which one they are).  Honestly, if I was DM'ing, I would probably provide the ability check as a matter of course (it was mentioned in a response that "investigating" might involve mere interaction with the phantasm - I'm inclined to rule that way if I was DMing).  If your DM is the type that isn't going to provide the target the ability check, please adjust my rating appropriately.6) I haven't counted up Int 3 or lower creatures in the MM either.  What I can tell you, is that in any campaign I can think of, I have come across opponents with 3 or less Int, but I can also tell you that in every case I think of, they represent a very small minority of challenges (and in almost every case, represent non-boss challenges), in fact, if I think of the last few sessions I've played, I don't recall fighting ANY Int 3 or lower creatures.  I wouldn't want to prepare a spell that the primary target is unlikely to appear over an entire session.  It's like with Druids - are you really likely to prepare Dominate Beast?  I mean it's great if you are challenged by a beast, but how certain are you that you will even be challenged by a single beast in a session, or even several sessions?I would like to sum up.  The main problem I have with Phantasmal Force is that if the target of the spell makes their save, nothing happens, while if the target fails their save and ability check, the fight is pretty much over.  I tend to like spells like Slow (although I gave slow a medium rating, as there are better spells that fill a similar function) because they target multiple opponents, and as soon as you start adding dice, the law of averages kicks in.  If you target 1 creature with a Hold Monster or a Phantasmal Force, it will either save or it won't, but if you target 6 opponents with Slow, all of them saving or all of them failing their save are actually the least likely outcomes.  Most likely you are looking at 3-4 slowed creatures - a reliable tactical advantage for your side, congratulations, you are a "god wizard"Naturally, this is just my subjective opinion, based on my own preferred playstyle for Wizards, which I provide through guides purely to have you consider them, not to have you consider them gospel, and to disregard at your leisure.</blockquote>

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