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<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 7177265" data-attributes="member: 2629">I think we're approaching these spells incorrectly.&nbsp; They're not there to tackle the main foe, they're there to sweep out the supporting cast.&nbsp; Once my spellcasters have 3rd level spells, it is rare that I do not have fireball prepared, but it is also rare that I cast it as an attempt to reduce the 'big bad' in an encounter to 0 hp.&nbsp; Sure, I'll try to catch them in it usually, but I primarily use it to sweep out the fodder and open up a path for the fighters to get to the big bad.&nbsp; Those supporting cast are essentially there to provide obstacles to the party, so these damage spells are really counters to typical battlefield control techniques by the DM.&nbsp;&nbsp; What a lot of people don't realize is that there are not many fodder pieces in the 30 hp range.&nbsp; There is a pretty good gap between those 22 hp (ghouls and gnolls) enemies and the enemies with hps above 40 (like orogs and centaurs)&nbsp; That means that damage in the 30s is kind of a waste most of the time.&nbsp; You generally want your damage to be about 28 on average (see fireball) to clean out those 22 hp enemies with a high certainty (91% chance you'll roll high enough damage that they'll die on a failed save), or you want expected damage high enough to give you a chance to do 45 or more damage to kill those tougher fodder foes in the 40s to 60s hps total.&nbsp; Unfortunately, you need to use a 7th or higher level spell to get fireball above that point.&nbsp; That just isn't a good use of one of those rare higher level spell slots.&nbsp; So, fireball is rarely going to be worth casting at a higher level - and the wizard area damage spells in levels 4 to 6 don't do better than fireball, really, to get you into expected damage above 40.There are obviously some exceptions, especially if you have a low level autodamage or area damage ability that you can generate without using your main action.&nbsp; However, I find this general rule to be true most of the time: Fireball is the only area damage spell you need after level 4 and you generally only need it to clean out CR 1 (and below) fodder.I really wish they'd given evoker's a bonus to damage to make it effective - perhaps 1d6 per spell level used to cast the spell.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 7177265, member: 2629"] I think we're approaching these spells incorrectly. They're not there to tackle the main foe, they're there to sweep out the supporting cast. Once my spellcasters have 3rd level spells, it is rare that I do not have fireball prepared, but it is also rare that I cast it as an attempt to reduce the 'big bad' in an encounter to 0 hp. Sure, I'll try to catch them in it usually, but I primarily use it to sweep out the fodder and open up a path for the fighters to get to the big bad. Those supporting cast are essentially there to provide obstacles to the party, so these damage spells are really counters to typical battlefield control techniques by the DM. What a lot of people don't realize is that there are not many fodder pieces in the 30 hp range. There is a pretty good gap between those 22 hp (ghouls and gnolls) enemies and the enemies with hps above 40 (like orogs and centaurs) That means that damage in the 30s is kind of a waste most of the time. You generally want your damage to be about 28 on average (see fireball) to clean out those 22 hp enemies with a high certainty (91% chance you'll roll high enough damage that they'll die on a failed save), or you want expected damage high enough to give you a chance to do 45 or more damage to kill those tougher fodder foes in the 40s to 60s hps total. Unfortunately, you need to use a 7th or higher level spell to get fireball above that point. That just isn't a good use of one of those rare higher level spell slots. So, fireball is rarely going to be worth casting at a higher level - and the wizard area damage spells in levels 4 to 6 don't do better than fireball, really, to get you into expected damage above 40. There are obviously some exceptions, especially if you have a low level autodamage or area damage ability that you can generate without using your main action. However, I find this general rule to be true most of the time: Fireball is the only area damage spell you need after level 4 and you generally only need it to clean out CR 1 (and below) fodder. I really wish they'd given evoker's a bonus to damage to make it effective - perhaps 1d6 per spell level used to cast the spell. [/QUOTE]

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