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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Treantmonklvl20" data-source="post: 7266350" data-attributes="member: 55582">Level 5:Our 3 examples include a Bladesinger (High Elf), a Knowledge Cleric (Wood Elf) and a Barbarian Berserker (Oh, let's go with a regular old non-variant human).  All 3 will use standard stat array.  At level 4 our spellcasters take feats (Warcaster for BS and Cleric)  Barbarian will grab +2 str.I will use the following abbreviations: Bladesinger - BS.  Cleric - CL.  Barbarian Berserker - BB.Stats look like this:BS: Str: 10, Dex: 16 (14+2), Con: 13, Int: 16 (15+1), Wis: 12, Cha: 8CL: Str: 10, Dex: 14 (12+2), Con: 14, Int: 12, Wis: 16 (15+1), Cha: 8BB: Str: 18 (15+1 +2), Dex: 14 (13+1), Con: 15 (14+1), Int: 9 (8+1), Wis: 13 (12+1), Cha: 11 (10+1)Barbarian Berserker:Let's start with our BB.  Weapon is a two handed sword.  BB is raging and reckless attacking.  His chance to hit becomes 0.65, with advantage, that becomes 0.8775(7 weapon damage + 4 strength bonus + 2 rage bonus) = 13 x 0.8775  (chance to hit) = 11.4075+ Crit possibility (7 more weapon damage x 0.0975) = 0.6825That's 12.09 per hit, x3 hits = 36.3 (rounded) damage per round.  I played with GWM and you can get it around 40, but I don't want to fill up the page with BB math - 36.3 is a good "high end" number..ClericNow let's check out our Cleric.  You might think a knowledge wood elf Cleric isn't really the ultimate melee Cleric, and you would be right.  This is just a run of the mill Cleric with no real melee speciality.  Let's see how they do.  The Cleric will be using Spirit Guardians, a Spiritual weapon and Sacred flame.  He could use a weapon, but he wants to keep his hand free to flip the bird at the Bladesinger for not pulling his weight.(13.5 spirit guardians damage x 0.60 chance of saving throw failure) = 8.1(6.75 spirit guardians damage x 0.40 chance of saving throw success) = 2.7(7.5 spiritual weapon damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 4.5(4.5 spiritual weapon crit extra damage x 0.05 chance of critical) = 0.225(9 Sacred flame damage x 0.60 chance of saving throw failure) = 5.4 (no damage on successful save)Total average damage per round: 20.9 (rounded)That's not bad.  Significantly lower than the BB, but 20.9 is respectable, especially for a character not built around melee damage.BladesingerNow let's check our Bladesinger.  He's using Booming Blade and Blur as you recommend against a single tough opponent.  We will first try against an unmoving opponent.  This should be "solid" damage I'm told.  (Edit: It occurs to me re-reading your post is you report a "solid" ability to maintain melee, not "solid" damage...anyways, let's check out the damage)(7.5 rapier damage + 4.5 booming blade damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 7.2(4.5 + 4.5 potential critical damage x 0.05 chance of critical) = 0.45Total damage per round 7.7 (rounded). vonklaude, you and I have VASTLY differing views on what "solid" damage is.  This represents 37% of the damage the CL does.  This represents less than a quarter the damage of the BB.  When you said that the damage would be 1/3-1/2 the damage of a martial character, I called that a "deal breaker", but it turns out, it's even worse.OK, maybe if the opponent moves....(7.5 rapier damage + 13.5 booming blade damage x 0.60 chance of hit) = 12.6(Critical damage is unchanged) = 0.45That's 13.1 average damage.  IF the opponent moves. That's still not even close to on par with the Cleric.Now the opponent could move and provoke an attack of opportunity, I just don't think that's going to happen frequently enough to do all the math (would need to do for all 3 characters)</blockquote>

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