Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Nork" data-source="post: 7589610" data-attributes="member: 59879"><p>I feel like Catapult was poorly treated in the guide.</p><p></p><p>Since the flight path can originate from darn near anywhere, nothing says you can't use it to drill another wizard on the other side of a wall of force or similar barrier if you want to try and concentration check them for cheap. The projectile didn't go through the barrier. Especially since the spell really sets you up to milk the DM for situational bonuses like having the projectile shoot from behind</p><p></p><p>Another item of note is that it is a somatic only spell that causes a projectile to be launched at a target from a direction that need not originate from the wizard. If the target doesn't know the wizard is there, getting drilled with non-magical rocks from the bushes simply isn't going to give the target many useful clues to figure out what is going on. Such attacks can very easily allow the wizard to create an ambush as the wizard uses catapult to REALLY sell that illusionary halfling with a sling and makes the enemy front line melee charge in and have the enemy back line fall back to get distance and end up presenting their backs as the wizard's party's front line attacks. Or maybe the wizard is looking through a keyhole into somebody's locked room and silently catapulting a letter opener from their desk into their back.</p><p></p><p>Furthermore, unlike most attack spells you don't magic the projectile into being and the spell is conspicuously open ended about the projectile parameters which means you are logically not limited as to what the spell is shooting. It would in no way be twisting anything to shoot a flask of holy water with catapult, or a net, or bundle of alchemist fire and oil flasks, or necklaces of fireballs, a jar of dust of sneezing and choking, oil of slipperiness, etc.</p><p></p><p>This last point is where I think the spell is a LOT better than the rating it got. Since you can more or less throw anything, it isn't actually an attack spell. It is a 'the wizard snapped their fingers and turned my encounter upside down by throwing something unexpected somewhere unexpected' spell. Those are the <em>real</em> power spells. This spell means that ANY object 5 pounds or less within 60 feet of the wizard is one action away from being thrown 90 feet. Shooting oil flasks is for amateurs. If the evil high priest screws up and sets the sacrificial blade down for just a second... the plot gets launched 90 feet off course in one action with no saving throw. Mage hand can't hold a candle to the range, lack of telegraphing, or magnitude of effect while still just being only a level 1 spell.</p><p></p><p>Maybe the wizard wants to frame somebody for starting a riot, or make it look like one side in a stand-off threw something at another side. Especially when the spell leaves normal non-magical evidence behind that is consistent with an object being thrown and assuming a wizard did it by default isn't the logical starting point. Or maybe you want to tranquilize a T-Rex with a 5 pound tranq dart from a safe distance. The spell is circumstantial, but it isn't like knock. There are simply too many objects between 1 to 5 pounds in any adventure to not have this spell be a threat every single time this spell is memorized, and unlike knock you can force the situation by bringing your own objects.</p><p></p><p>Catapult is one of those spells that has the potential to solve a situation in an unexpected way AND if all else fails it is still a decent enough damage spell if that utility application doesn't actually crop up in the adventure thus making it even more versatile. Magic missile lacks the ability to change the rules of the encounter, so magic missile in arguably more niche and circumstantial compared to catapult.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Honestly, for as much as the guide author talks about doing damage as the wizard is often missing the point, they seem to lose the plot as soon as they see extremely open ended utility spells that also can be used to do enough damage to be a convincing circumstantial attack spell that they then de-value for being circumstantial as an attack spell. Like disintegrate. The effect is so powerful and open ended on the utility front that the text can't spell it out all the possible applications (I disintegrate a support column of the temple, I disintegrate the bridge, I disintegrate the base of the ship's mast, I disintegrate a hole through the wall, etc), then in addition it specifically counters spells the author thinks are really good, plus if push comes to shove it can be pressed into service as a credible damage spell if the circumstances work out. One spell that is circumstantially useful in a wide array of open ended circumstances isn't actually circumstantial. Sure, the DM can entirely negate the effect of the spell by fiat, but the DM can also entirely negate a more well defines spell by fudging the mechanics, but at least with catapult or disintegrate you can catch them red handed when they do it because the DM negating a disintegrate or catapult spell can't fudge dice rolls that didn't happen. They have to tell the entire table that disintegrating the main support column of the temple the just described didn't affect the structural stability, or that the MacGuffin doesn't fly across the room because they said it doesn't. Which makes them arguably MORE powerful than 'by the rules' spells with defined effects that can be hand waved by altering data behind the DM screen to force their desired result.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Nork, post: 7589610, member: 59879"] I feel like Catapult was poorly treated in the guide. Since the flight path can originate from darn near anywhere, nothing says you can't use it to drill another wizard on the other side of a wall of force or similar barrier if you want to try and concentration check them for cheap. The projectile didn't go through the barrier. Especially since the spell really sets you up to milk the DM for situational bonuses like having the projectile shoot from behind Another item of note is that it is a somatic only spell that causes a projectile to be launched at a target from a direction that need not originate from the wizard. If the target doesn't know the wizard is there, getting drilled with non-magical rocks from the bushes simply isn't going to give the target many useful clues to figure out what is going on. Such attacks can very easily allow the wizard to create an ambush as the wizard uses catapult to REALLY sell that illusionary halfling with a sling and makes the enemy front line melee charge in and have the enemy back line fall back to get distance and end up presenting their backs as the wizard's party's front line attacks. Or maybe the wizard is looking through a keyhole into somebody's locked room and silently catapulting a letter opener from their desk into their back. Furthermore, unlike most attack spells you don't magic the projectile into being and the spell is conspicuously open ended about the projectile parameters which means you are logically not limited as to what the spell is shooting. It would in no way be twisting anything to shoot a flask of holy water with catapult, or a net, or bundle of alchemist fire and oil flasks, or necklaces of fireballs, a jar of dust of sneezing and choking, oil of slipperiness, etc. This last point is where I think the spell is a LOT better than the rating it got. Since you can more or less throw anything, it isn't actually an attack spell. It is a 'the wizard snapped their fingers and turned my encounter upside down by throwing something unexpected somewhere unexpected' spell. Those are the [I]real[/I] power spells. This spell means that ANY object 5 pounds or less within 60 feet of the wizard is one action away from being thrown 90 feet. Shooting oil flasks is for amateurs. If the evil high priest screws up and sets the sacrificial blade down for just a second... the plot gets launched 90 feet off course in one action with no saving throw. Mage hand can't hold a candle to the range, lack of telegraphing, or magnitude of effect while still just being only a level 1 spell. Maybe the wizard wants to frame somebody for starting a riot, or make it look like one side in a stand-off threw something at another side. Especially when the spell leaves normal non-magical evidence behind that is consistent with an object being thrown and assuming a wizard did it by default isn't the logical starting point. Or maybe you want to tranquilize a T-Rex with a 5 pound tranq dart from a safe distance. The spell is circumstantial, but it isn't like knock. There are simply too many objects between 1 to 5 pounds in any adventure to not have this spell be a threat every single time this spell is memorized, and unlike knock you can force the situation by bringing your own objects. Catapult is one of those spells that has the potential to solve a situation in an unexpected way AND if all else fails it is still a decent enough damage spell if that utility application doesn't actually crop up in the adventure thus making it even more versatile. Magic missile lacks the ability to change the rules of the encounter, so magic missile in arguably more niche and circumstantial compared to catapult. Honestly, for as much as the guide author talks about doing damage as the wizard is often missing the point, they seem to lose the plot as soon as they see extremely open ended utility spells that also can be used to do enough damage to be a convincing circumstantial attack spell that they then de-value for being circumstantial as an attack spell. Like disintegrate. The effect is so powerful and open ended on the utility front that the text can't spell it out all the possible applications (I disintegrate a support column of the temple, I disintegrate the bridge, I disintegrate the base of the ship's mast, I disintegrate a hole through the wall, etc), then in addition it specifically counters spells the author thinks are really good, plus if push comes to shove it can be pressed into service as a credible damage spell if the circumstances work out. One spell that is circumstantially useful in a wide array of open ended circumstances isn't actually circumstantial. Sure, the DM can entirely negate the effect of the spell by fiat, but the DM can also entirely negate a more well defines spell by fudging the mechanics, but at least with catapult or disintegrate you can catch them red handed when they do it because the DM negating a disintegrate or catapult spell can't fudge dice rolls that didn't happen. They have to tell the entire table that disintegrating the main support column of the temple the just described didn't affect the structural stability, or that the MacGuffin doesn't fly across the room because they said it doesn't. Which makes them arguably MORE powerful than 'by the rules' spells with defined effects that can be hand waved by altering data behind the DM screen to force their desired result. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e
Top