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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RuminDange" data-source="post: 1701269" data-attributes="member: 5412">In the case you state, the character would get a save because they are traveling though an area that they know "might" hold danger of some form.  Place a trap in their home in a highly traveled area and they are not expecting danger.  Saves represent the awareness of the character (Ref), Strength of body or mind (Fort or Will) to ward off or get out of dangerous situations.  If you think you are safe (and you are not) you delude your senses and therefore get no chance to react or fight off the effect.  i.e. Maybe the reason most accidents happen at home...stepping on toys left on the stairs, tripping over vacuum cord, etc.I would say that they have lowered their defenses, deluded their instinct into believing they are safe and therefore no save.  If they have reason to distrust the wizard at all, like investigating an attempt on the king's life by an unknown assassin or something then maybe a save with the DM Friendly -2 attached as they lower their defenses but gut instinct makes them leery and they try defend against it at the last moment.  Also if they want to delude the wizard and/or king I would say a save is in order.Of course making the save for them in secret can also keep hard feelings from happening, but in some cases they may not accept that either as they believe you've had them fail on purposes to railroad them.  Depends on if the players trust the DM or if you have done such a thing before.  Easiest way to handle it in my opinion is if they lower their defense to accept the spell no matter what willingly then no save. Period.  If they want to be picky about it, then all spells no matter who cast them would require a save, so the next time their character is unconscience and dying and the cleric goes to heal them they get a save.  Make it and no healing.RD</blockquote>

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