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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 3289600" data-attributes="member: 48965">Touche.  What I guess I'm really getting at is what is unnecessary "fat" in the game, I am really hoping that 4e goes the route of a less rules intensive D&D to start with and modularity where you can add the complexity.  I think its easier than deconstructing things to make them simpler.  When I say what am I paying for I mean it in the sense of what is the actual game and what are guidelines.  What is standard D&D?I feel its excess rules that don't do what they are suppose too.  Why? because the nature of a rpg is individualized to the point that I can't see it being regulated with any more certainty by these rules than saying hey...just use common sense and guesstimate.  So do we need them?No, and I'm truly sorry if I came off that way.  I do get a little peeved at the answer to almost any question concerning rules bloat or extra rules etc. in 3.5 being don't use em if you don't want to their only guidelines.  Like I said before wouldn't it be easier to start with a simpler game and let those who want more complexity add it on with supplements.  Also isn't there a time when there is actual rules bloat.  There has to be a point(maybe even now) where things break down due to an inability for all possible outcomes of infinitely increasing substructures of a rule system to function as a balanced whole?Any game can be done like this.  What I'm trying to figure out is what rules are necessary for it to still be D&D to majority of people and what rules are not.Thank you, but see above let's take this a little deeper.I totally see what you're saying, and upon reflection feel like my original post didn't exactly communicate what I was actually looking for.So here goes... What rules can be trimmed from the current version of D&D and it still be considered D&D by majority of gamers.</blockquote>

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