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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Falling Icicle" data-source="post: 4088066" data-attributes="member: 17077">I share the OP's distaste for the way they're handling attributes in 4e. Not only does it completely dispense with any sense of believability and verisimilitude, it encourages attribute dumping and min-maxing. I was hoping that in 4e they would further reinforce the different roles of each attribute, while making every attribute as valuable as possible to every class. Instead, what we're getting is the exact opposite. You can now dump 3 of your attributes, leaving them at 8 (or less) without any negative consequence (save for a couple skills). Not only that, some builds, like dextrous Wizards, will be absolutely ludicrous, since Intelligence can substitute for Dexterity for AC and Reflex defense. Want to make a strong ranger? Don't bother. Get Con instead, since it gives you more healing surges, and you apply your Dex instead of Strength to your damage anyway. Want to make a wise Warlock? Don't bother with that either.And there's also the part about just how utterly ridiculous this all is. Intelligence makes you better at dodging things?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" />  And don't give me the "you can calculate the trajectory of the incoming fireball" crap. All the brainpower in the world won't help you move quickly and be well-coordinated. Intelligence is, by its very definition, a *mental* attribute. Using it for physical defenses is about as utterly absurd as anything can get. And even from a game design perspective, this is a bad move, IMO. Why even have 6 different attributes when characters can ignore 3 of them? As the OP said, you might as well just have 3 attributes and be done with it (not that I'd like that either).This is definately the worst change in 4e, from what I've heard so far. I can rationalize the part about people progressing in every single skill as they level. I can find some dramatic explanation to justify healing surges. I can roll my eyes and simply accept that resting from 6 hours is a cure-all. But this attribute nonsense really crosses the line. Not only does it completely mock verisimilitude, it will lead to cookie-cutter characters to a far greater degree than what we've seen before. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what I can do about it. It's probably something that is so thoroughly ingrained in the system that it can't be house-ruled without a major overhaul (and editing every single monster, NPC, etc in the books).</blockquote>

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