trip, grapple, turn: low-impact speedups?

[aboyd]

I just started what I think is a successful low-impact revision of critical hits -- a single roll, extremely small amount of rewritten text, apparently no feats affected until you go out into splatbooks. I'd like to try the same for grapples, turns, and trips. Is anyone aware of house rules that reorder or streamline steps to quicken the process? I'd like to avoid anything that goes so far as to gut feats like Improved Trip (unless it's so awesome & simplified that you're certain I'd make an exception).

 

[Kerrick]

Paizo's CMB system is a huge boon to grapple, trip, sunder, and disarm, though you should use 10+CMB instead of 15+CMB and halve the size modifiers. They also changed turning to channeling energy so it heals allies, but since you're looking for simplicity, try this this system.

 

[aboyd]

Wow, some of that is complicated.

For turning, I was merely thinking of dropping the turn check roll, and replacing it with level + charisma bonus + knowledge religion synergy (if the character has it). The turn damage roll would remain. So a 2nd level cleric with 14 charisma would do this:

1. Roll the turn damage as usual (2d6 + bonuses).
2. Cap the highest hit die undead that can be turned at 4 HD (level + cha).

If the cleric rolled an 8 (including bonuses), then he/she could turn two 4 HD undead. But he/she could not turn one 8 HD undead, due to the cap.

This is almost exactly the same as turn undead following RAW, but removes one roll and replaces it with a reasonably fair, typically unchanging number (or at least only changes once per level). Should be easier for players to follow and execute quickly.

As for grapple and trip, I'm not quite there yet.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Check out EN Publishing's Grappling for Beginners

THere are some threads in the EN Publishing forums with additional information and a link to the sequel.

The system is faster and easier to use.

 

[Kerrick]

Wow, some of that is complicated.

Yeah, okay, it's not exactly "simple" like you were looking for. I was aiming more toward fixing the system.

For turning, I was merely thinking of dropping the turn check roll, and replacing it with level + charisma bonus + knowledge religion synergy (if the character has it). The turn damage roll would remain. So a 2nd level cleric with 14 charisma would do this:

Roll the turn damage as usual (2d6 + bonuses).
Cap the highest hit die undead that can be turned at 4 HD (level + cha).

If the cleric rolled an 8 (including bonuses), then he/she could turn two 4 HD undead. But he/she could not turn one 8 HD undead, due to the cap.

The problem with using HD instead of CR is that zombies break the system - a CR 6 zombie has 12-13 HD, which means a L6 cleric has zero chance of turning it. Your solution of level + Cha bonus helps a bit, but it still doesn't fix this. Not that I'm arguing for using my system... just thought I'd point that out.

As for grapple and trip, I'm not quite there yet.

Actually, try this out. I adapted it from the Alpha 2 rules, before they changed grapple.

 

[aboyd]

Check out EN Publishing's Grappling for Beginners

Sweet! Thanks! That's the loot I wanted.

The problem with using HD instead of CR is that zombies break the system - a CR 6 zombie has 12-13 HD, which means a L6 cleric has zero chance of turning it. Your solution of level + Cha bonus helps a bit, but it still doesn't fix this.

Ah, I see. I'm actually fine with that. The existing D&D mechanic works that way as well. A 6th level cleric can't turn a 13 HD zombie in either my houseruled version or the original system. So that's OK. I like keeping things close to the original but faster for players to do.

Actually, try this out. I adapted it from the Alpha 2 rules, before they changed grapple.

Wow, yeah, that's good. That is clearly an improvement.

 

[aboyd]

A 6th level cleric can't turn a 13 HD zombie in either my houseruled version or the original system.

Hmm. I might be wrong about my own houserule. A level 6 cleric could have a 19 charisma without the aid of magic. If that cleric then cast a buff of +4 to charisma, that'd put it at 23. That's +6, which in my system gets added to the amount of HD you can turn. If that same cleric had the +2 synergy bonus, he would turn 6 + 6 + 2 = 14 HD monster. Oh! And if he had the Improved Turning feat, he'd be able to turn an undead enemy with 15 HD! Of course, he'd also need to get a roll that high, but such a roll would be easy.

My system might break a module or campaign that relied on an undead enemy being just out of reach for a cleric to turn. Worth the tradeoff, IMHO. I don't have any campaigns that keep things that close, anyway.

 

[Kaisoku]

A CR6 Zombie can have 20 HD. Gray Render Zombie.

The problem is with HD and CR. Undead CR goes up 4 HD per CR. Not much you can do with that.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

FOr turning undead, the easiest is to use the damaging turn variant from the Complete Divine..

[sblock]
Complete Divine (p.87) has a 'Destruction of the Undead' turning variant.

Basically, the turn attempt deals 1d6/Cleric lvl positive energy damage to all undead within 30 feet. The undead get a Will save for half damage, DC = 10 + Cleric lvl + Cha modifier.

Feat modifications/extra turning boosts can cahnge to 60’Cone, widen/maximize, etc.
Greater Turning deals 1D8/Cleric lvl

Turn Resistance acts as DR at a value of 4 points per level {turn resistance 2 grants a DR of 8 against turns}

Bolstering Undead, grants temp hps to all Undead within the 60’cone, lasts for 1D6+Chr Mod in rounds.
[/sblock]

I haven't had the chance to try it in play, and lost the link to the thread that discussed the method pretty much in depth... but it looks alot cleaner.