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<blockquote data-quote="IceFractal" data-source="post: 4090749" data-attributes="member: 27704">Several people have said that since trip (without a feat) was a suboptimal option, that made it a nonoption and there's no point even having it.&nbsp; But I think that's missing an important point ...Not all battles are in normal circumstances against equally-matched foes.&nbsp; Sure, disarming someone without the Improved Disarm feat was usually a bad idea.&nbsp; If you were fighting an ally that was possessed by a cursed sword, it became a good idea.&nbsp; Tripping without the feat was likewise not generally useful.&nbsp; But if you were trying to capture a foe alive, or facing someone with magical defenses you could barely penetrate, it became a better solution.So sure, make &quot;effective trip attack that also does damage&quot; a per-encounter power.&nbsp; But give us the basic, usually non-optimal, option - because sometimes the situation warrants it.And I don't see how the fact that it can be done ad-hoc helps anything.&nbsp; Sure, you can ad-hoc anything ... if you're the DM.&nbsp; But it won't help when you're a player in RPGA games, or convention games, or simply games with a modification-wary DM.&nbsp; And since you have no idea how exactly the DM will adjucate basic manuevers, forget making a strategy ahead of time.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="IceFractal, post: 4090749, member: 27704"] Several people have said that since trip (without a feat) was a suboptimal option, that made it a nonoption and there's no point even having it. But I think that's missing an important point ... [B]Not all battles are in normal circumstances against equally-matched foes.[/B] Sure, disarming someone without the Improved Disarm feat was [I]usually[/I] a bad idea. If you were fighting an ally that was possessed by a cursed sword, it became a good idea. Tripping without the feat was likewise not generally useful. But if you were trying to capture a foe alive, or facing someone with magical defenses you could barely penetrate, it became a better solution. So sure, make "effective trip attack that also does damage" a per-encounter power. But give us the basic, usually non-optimal, option - because sometimes the situation warrants it. And I don't see how the fact that it can be done ad-hoc helps anything. Sure, you can ad-hoc anything ... [I]if you're the DM.[/I] But it won't help when you're a player in RPGA games, or convention games, or simply games with a modification-wary DM. And since you have no idea how exactly the DM will adjucate basic manuevers, forget making a strategy ahead of time. [/QUOTE]

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