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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jeff Wilder" data-source="post: 2462833" data-attributes="member: 5122">Yeah, and I haven't apologized or nuthin'.  I can understand why you're so peeved.You still don't get it.  It's not one free round ... the guy can have six shortswords on his belt, in addition to the other tricks I showed you.And as I said, there are returning weapons that allow unlimited non-penalty TWF under the version with which you "have no problem."And I don't get your point.  You can attack with the longsword, with no penalties (since you're not wileding two weapons), then attack with your offhand unarmed strike.  And you can do this over and over, every time not taking penalties with the longsword.A ring that delivers a shocking grasp certainly is a weapon.  No, it's not being wielded ... thus, by the version of TWF you like, you can attack with the longsword at no penalty, then decide to make an off-hand attack with the ring.  And, again, you can do this over and over.I don't think you quite understand what forms an off-hand attack can take.Hell, you can even attack with the longsword at no penalty, then attack with a non-improved unarmed strike as a second attack.  Sure, you'll provoke an attack of opportunity, but if the target has already uses his AoO(s) for the round, hey, why not?  Free damage!And on, and on, and on.Whether or not a "weapon is wielded in the off-hand" is not what determines whether someone is using TWF.</blockquote>