Triple-empowered Bull's Strength?

[James McMurray]

Because of the way metamagic works, those rules don't apply that way. Each metamagic feat specificlly effects the base spell. However, as the difference is at most going to be one point per empower, it really doesn't matter all that much which way you do it.

 

[Iku Rex]

Because of the way metamagic works, those rules don't apply that way. Each metamagic feat specificlly effects the base spell.

Each feat affects the base spell. So what? Did you read the quote I posted?

You are applying more than one multiplier to a number/die roll. When that happens, you are to combine them into a single multiplier. This is not the least bit unclear.

However, as the difference is at most going to be one point per empower, it really doesn't matter all that much which way you do it.

It will matter more for the 1d4+1 spells.

 

[James McMurray]

How do you figure? Each empower with my method to a fully hyped magic missile (5d4+5) will add 8 points (8.75 rounded down). That means triple empowered MM will add 24. Your method would instead add 26 (3.5 5 x 1.5). Still not a whole lot of difference.

Even Empowering 5 missiles 26 times will add 208 damage with my method, and 218 with your method. At the levels it requires to empower something 26 times, 10 points difference is not that big of a deal.

 

[KarinsDad]

How do you figure? Each empower with my method to a fully hyped magic missile (5d4+5) will add 8 points (8.75 rounded down). That means triple empowered MM will add 24. Your method would instead add 26 (3.5 5 x 1.5). Still not a whole lot of difference.

I think he's talking about ability score increase 1D4+1 type spells.

Empower Empower Empower Bull Strength:

1:5 (2 + 1 + 1 + 1)
2:6 (3 + 1 + 1 + 1)
3:10 (4 + 2 + 2 + 2)
4:11 (5 + 2 + 2 + 2)

That's a real jump between 2 and 3.

Using the DND multiplier rules:

1:5 (2 * 2.5)
2:7 (3 * 2.5)
3:10 (4 * 2.5)
4:12 (5 * 2.5)

 

[James McMurray]

The difference between the methods is still always a single point. Also, the average effects (3.5 rolled, meaning add 1 for each application of my version or 1.75 for each application of his) only mildly affect the outcome until way into the uppper levels of stacked empower.

Finally, the difference in jumps his way (7 to 10) and my way (6 to 10) between 2 and three is exactly the same when dealing with ability enhancement spells. The only time his way works out better is if you started with an odd stat.

 

[KarinsDad]

The difference between the methods is still always a single point.

Yes, this is true, but you miss the point.

One point can have a significant difference for the D4+1 ability score spells. It has little difference for Magic Missile.

If you use the add each empower to the effect method, either a 1 or 2 roll (odd ability score) or 3 or 4 roll (even ability score) will result in no increase due to rolling one more on the roll.

If you use the multiplier method, it matters not what your ability score is. A 4 roll always does better than a 3 roll which always does better than a 2 roll which always does better than a 1 roll. Always (for Empower, Empower, Empower).

Hence, his statement that "It will matter more for the 1d4+1 spells." is true.

And, in fact, for Empower Empower Bull Strength, a similar problem occurs. The add up each empower to the effect method sucks for even ability score characters, but always increases the ability score modifier for odd ability scores:

1:4 (2 + 1 + 1)
2:5 (3 + 1 + 1)
3:8 (4 + 2 + 2)
4:9 (5 + 2 + 2)

The multiplier method is just as good for each:

1:4 (2 * 2)
2:6 (3 * 2)
3:8 (4 * 2)
4:10 (5 * 2)

You asked "How do you figure?", I told you how. The multiplier method is smoother, hence, it doesn't have weird jumps and discrepencies in it.