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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5381641" data-attributes="member: 18280">Hrm.&nbsp; &quot;Regularly do fantastic things&quot;?&nbsp; The epic poem Beowulf spans more than 50 years.&nbsp; How regularly does Beowulf do fantastic things within that poem?&nbsp; Even if we throw the context of the poem out the window because some might say &quot;Beowulf is not really that impressive&quot; -- as if the accomplishments of human beings cannot be!Again, as this thread has shown, one doesn't need to take the leap into fantasy to uncover real human feats that others think fantastic.&nbsp; Beowulf doesn't need to out benchpress the Hulk to be impressive, nor need he be Aquaman.&nbsp; The emphasis of the poem -- what actually makes Beowulf impressive to the intended audience -- is that he does what he ought to do.&nbsp; And anyone can do what they ought, if they (like Beowulf) are willing to pay the price.It is sometimes said that S&amp;S, and games like D&amp;D, are about adolescent power fantasy.&nbsp; This may be true, especially if all one does is focus on the power.&nbsp; But this doesn't have to be the primary focus, as it was not the primary focus of Beowulf and is not the primary focus of the REH Conan stories.Adolescent power fantasy is about &quot;What can I do?&nbsp; What can I take?&nbsp; What do I get?&quot;&nbsp; Beowulf is no less desirous to do great deeds, or to win renown, but he is focused on &quot;What is right for me to do?&nbsp; What can I give back?&nbsp; What is the honourable way to face my foes?&nbsp; What gifts do I bring my king?&quot;&nbsp; IOW, one focuses on &quot;What's in it for me?&quot; while the other focuses on &quot;What can I bring to the table?&quot;I far prefer &quot;What can I bring to the table?&quot;YMMV.As for &quot;focus on the limitations&quot;, then if you say X is Y, and I say X is not-Y, sure, you can say &quot;You are focusing on the limitations!&nbsp; Like how X is not-Y!&quot;&nbsp; But the &quot;focus&quot; here is brought about by the original claim, not be the refutation of it.&nbsp; And the refutation exists only because the original claim is used to back other claims, which are equally -- or even more! -- questionable.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 5381641, member: 18280"] Hrm. "Regularly do fantastic things"? The epic poem Beowulf spans more than 50 years. How regularly does Beowulf do fantastic things within that poem? Even if we throw the context of the poem out the window because some might say "Beowulf is not really that impressive" -- as if the accomplishments of human beings cannot be! Again, as this thread has shown, one doesn't need to take the leap into fantasy to uncover real human feats that others think fantastic. Beowulf doesn't need to out benchpress the Hulk to be impressive, nor need he be Aquaman. The emphasis of the poem -- what actually makes Beowulf impressive to the intended audience -- is that he does what he ought to do. And anyone can do what they ought, if they (like Beowulf) are willing to pay the price. It is sometimes said that S&S, and games like D&D, are about adolescent power fantasy. This may be true, especially if all one does is focus on the power. But this doesn't have to be the primary focus, as it was not the primary focus of Beowulf and is not the primary focus of the REH Conan stories. Adolescent power fantasy is about "What can I do? What can I take? What do I get?" Beowulf is no less desirous to do great deeds, or to win renown, but he is focused on "What is right for me to do? What can I give back? What is the honourable way to face my foes? What gifts do I bring my king?" IOW, one focuses on "What's in it for me?" while the other focuses on "What can I bring to the table?" I far prefer "What can I bring to the table?" YMMV. As for "focus on the limitations", then if you say X is Y, and I say X is not-Y, sure, you can say "You are focusing on the limitations! Like how X is not-Y!" But the "focus" here is brought about by the original claim, not be the refutation of it. And the refutation exists only because the original claim is used to back other claims, which are equally -- or even more! -- questionable. RC [/QUOTE]

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