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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 156229" data-attributes="member: 2011">It goes one way and not the other because the column is titled “Miss Chance”. It is not titled “Concealment Factors”.I think this is an exaggeration. One spell which usually isn’t studied negating total concealment for one character for one attack is hardly munchkin land. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" />No doubt about it. They are separate mechanics. This is apparent even without the section in the DMG (although the DMG indicates what the DCs are for locating the target). However, they are used at the exact same time when attacking a totally concealed character.Think about it.If a character is 300 feet away from you, the “guess their location” chance is next to zero. So, the Miss Chance is approximately 100%-.The Miss Chance includes the 50% and it includes the chance of guessing correctly.If you guess incorrectly, you still miss, correct?If you attempt a Listen check per the DMG, your chances of making it are 20+his move silent DC.If you attempt a Spot check per the DMG, your chances are fairly dismal.In either case, the chances of missing are huge. That might be why the “guess their location” is part of the Miss Chance column. Missing is not just your percentage chance, it is also your chance, regardless of mechanics you use (Scent, Spot, Listen, Guess) to pinpoint the target.But, if you negate the Miss Chance, then there is no chance of missing due to Miss Chance, which according to the column, includes the guessing of the location.Missing due to rolling a one on the attack roll is NOT on that column and is not part of the Miss Chance. Hence, you could still miss by rolling a one.Well, I think we beat this one to death. I think Miss Chance due to concealment includes all concealment factors and actually makes the spell worthwhile. Other people take the narrow view that Miss Chance only includes the percentage given in the table. I doubt we will ever convince each differently. C’est la guerre.</blockquote>

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