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Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)
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<blockquote data-quote="Asisreo" data-source="post: 8546002" data-attributes="member: 7019027"><p>The point of this thread is to get into the meat-and-potatoes of the ongoing discussion about martials and casters. By now, it's been 8 years since WoTC released 5e, and the debate has built up more and more over the years. It's been covered almost exhaustively and there are even threads continuing that debate. I also fear that this very thread may invoke a 50+ page war, but I'm hoping that it won't be too cumbersome.</p><p></p><p>This thread is for understanding each other's point-of-view. It will involve disagreements, but the point isn't to agree, it's to understand. This let's homebrew creators understand the desires of those they're homebrewing for, as well as seeing things from beyond your own perspective.</p><p></p><p>So, I would like to start by going through some surface level arguments that represent both sides of the discussion as well as counter-arguments that I have commonly experienced. Feel free to quote whichever argument you would like to expand on or explain your disagreements with.</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong><em>Martials have equal combat-effectiveness, so there should be no problem. </em></strong></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">Counter: The divide between martials and casters stem from the lack of versatility both in-and-out of combat. A caster has the tools to end the encounter too easily and quickly while a martial can only rely on damage to end the encounter and are much less flexible. Outside of combat, the caster can do everything the martial can do and more. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">counter-counter: "Caster" is being used broadly to cover a large amount of classes. Most classes have the spellcasting feature yet there are some classes that have limited or no access to certain abilities. They also have a limit to how much they can prepare/know, so it's not fair to look at any <em>possible</em> spell since they might not have access to it, especially known-spellcasters like wizards, Bards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers. </span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong><em>Most games take place with few encounter days, which means casters can NOVA through them while also having powerful utility. </em></strong></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">Counter: The game's balance is set for 6-8 encounters in a day so it's expected that balance fails going below this criteria. Martials are very useful for longer stretches of days since they can always run with maximum efficiency until the end of the day. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">Counter-counter: 6-8 is ridiculous for most narratives and is a slog. Even if they aren't all combats, most noncombat encounters can be resolved without expending resources. Also, martials have limited resources, not only with HP, but also most have a resource like Action Surge, Ki, or Rage. So they actually don't run on maximum efficiency. </span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong><em>Just reflavor the casters into a martial by reflavoring magic. </em></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">Counter: Reflavoring can only go so far. How would you reflavor dispel magic stopping your attacks? And what would spells that can't translate nonmagically like illusions or teleportation or mind manipulation work? They can't. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">Counter-counter: With a DM, they can reflavor anything with ease. A dispel-magic can be Disrupt Focus so it explains why both a martial and caster doesn't get the benefits. Teleportation can be extremely quick and far movement or bursts of supernatural speed. Illusions and mind manipulations may be done with homemade smoke and mirrors or by dazing/confusing the opponents with words. Or they can be excluded from your martial play entirely. </span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong><em>I want high-level martials to feel like a superhero/mythical figure/demigod. Casters get to feel that way, but martials do not. </em></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">Counter: Not everyone wants a martial that can throw buildings or destroy mountains. It wouldn't fit my fantasy or it would force a fantasy that I'd dislike. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">Counter-counter: High-level casters get to force their fantasy. Plus, if you dislike the one class that can throw buildings, don't play them. I do not want all other classes removed, I just want my one complex, powerful, utility martial. </span></p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p><strong><span style="font-size: 15px"><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">I don't necessarily believe everything above, but I've seen the topics before and want to get a head-start. Clarifying is more than welcome, but try to avoid restating the same points posted above. I don't expect you to read everything in this thread, but also try to avoid restating other's responses as best you can.</span></span></strong></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"><strong><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">Please be kind and courteous to your fellow forum-goers. Expect to be disagreed with and try to truly understand. Don't shame or make others feel bad, and ask as many genuine questions as you can. Also, please avoid trolling. I'm hoping to get better insight. </span></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"><strong><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">Thank you for your time, </span></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"><strong><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">Asisreo</span></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px"><strong><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">Edit: Hmm...it seems I accidentally started something else. Although the additional points, counter-points, and counter-counters are welcome. </span></strong></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Asisreo, post: 8546002, member: 7019027"] The point of this thread is to get into the meat-and-potatoes of the ongoing discussion about martials and casters. By now, it's been 8 years since WoTC released 5e, and the debate has built up more and more over the years. It's been covered almost exhaustively and there are even threads continuing that debate. I also fear that this very thread may invoke a 50+ page war, but I'm hoping that it won't be too cumbersome. This thread is for understanding each other's point-of-view. It will involve disagreements, but the point isn't to agree, it's to understand. This let's homebrew creators understand the desires of those they're homebrewing for, as well as seeing things from beyond your own perspective. So, I would like to start by going through some surface level arguments that represent both sides of the discussion as well as counter-arguments that I have commonly experienced. Feel free to quote whichever argument you would like to expand on or explain your disagreements with. [SIZE=6][B][I]Martials have equal combat-effectiveness, so there should be no problem. [/I][/B][/SIZE] [SIZE=4]Counter: The divide between martials and casters stem from the lack of versatility both in-and-out of combat. A caster has the tools to end the encounter too easily and quickly while a martial can only rely on damage to end the encounter and are much less flexible. Outside of combat, the caster can do everything the martial can do and more. counter-counter: "Caster" is being used broadly to cover a large amount of classes. Most classes have the spellcasting feature yet there are some classes that have limited or no access to certain abilities. They also have a limit to how much they can prepare/know, so it's not fair to look at any [I]possible[/I] spell since they might not have access to it, especially known-spellcasters like wizards, Bards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers. [/SIZE] [SIZE=6][B][I]Most games take place with few encounter days, which means casters can NOVA through them while also having powerful utility. [/I][/B][/SIZE] [SIZE=4]Counter: The game's balance is set for 6-8 encounters in a day so it's expected that balance fails going below this criteria. Martials are very useful for longer stretches of days since they can always run with maximum efficiency until the end of the day. Counter-counter: 6-8 is ridiculous for most narratives and is a slog. Even if they aren't all combats, most noncombat encounters can be resolved without expending resources. Also, martials have limited resources, not only with HP, but also most have a resource like Action Surge, Ki, or Rage. So they actually don't run on maximum efficiency. [/SIZE] [SIZE=6][B][I]Just reflavor the casters into a martial by reflavoring magic. [/I][/B][/SIZE] [SIZE=4]Counter: Reflavoring can only go so far. How would you reflavor dispel magic stopping your attacks? And what would spells that can't translate nonmagically like illusions or teleportation or mind manipulation work? They can't. Counter-counter: With a DM, they can reflavor anything with ease. A dispel-magic can be Disrupt Focus so it explains why both a martial and caster doesn't get the benefits. Teleportation can be extremely quick and far movement or bursts of supernatural speed. Illusions and mind manipulations may be done with homemade smoke and mirrors or by dazing/confusing the opponents with words. Or they can be excluded from your martial play entirely. [/SIZE] [SIZE=6][B][I]I want high-level martials to feel like a superhero/mythical figure/demigod. Casters get to feel that way, but martials do not. [/I][/B][/SIZE] [SIZE=4]Counter: Not everyone wants a martial that can throw buildings or destroy mountains. It wouldn't fit my fantasy or it would force a fantasy that I'd dislike. Counter-counter: High-level casters get to force their fantasy. Plus, if you dislike the one class that can throw buildings, don't play them. I do not want all other classes removed, I just want my one complex, powerful, utility martial. [/SIZE] [HR][/HR] [B][SIZE=4][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]I don't necessarily believe everything above, but I've seen the topics before and want to get a head-start. Clarifying is more than welcome, but try to avoid restating the same points posted above. I don't expect you to read everything in this thread, but also try to avoid restating other's responses as best you can.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] [SIZE=4][B][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]Please be kind and courteous to your fellow forum-goers. Expect to be disagreed with and try to truly understand. Don't shame or make others feel bad, and ask as many genuine questions as you can. Also, please avoid trolling. I'm hoping to get better insight. [/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]Thank you for your time, [/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]Asisreo[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]Edit: Hmm...it seems I accidentally started something else. Although the additional points, counter-points, and counter-counters are welcome. [/COLOR][/B][/SIZE] [/QUOTE]
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