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<blockquote data-quote="HammerMan" data-source="post: 8546846" data-attributes="member: 84112"><p>except with spells... you can change the narrative with spells</p><p></p><p>funny enough that example is as close as we get to what I want... a rogue subclass CAN give the charmed condition.</p><p></p><p></p><p>yup and I even (maybe end of last year) had a whole post/thread about mutants and masterminds compared to 4e... I don't want it to go the FULL M&M way. As much as I love 4e, I don't even want it to go that full route. </p><p></p><p>if you could play a 2e style wizard with 4e style cantrips (so mostly noncombat... although I would say detect magic could be one) with a modfied 5e concentration next to a 2e cleric (I really like spheres so that you have diffrent clerics taking from diffrent spell lists) next to a 4e warlord, and an amalgam of ranger and rogue from 4e.... along with some mix of a 4e slayer fighter with the 5e fighter (so still simple) right next to the 5e artificer and warlock I would be SUPER happy. I don't know how to do it I don't know how to balance it. but at no point do I want Mutants and Mastermind fully classless system (and in 2e with skills and power build your own class I didn't have good experences)</p><p></p><p>I left monk bard sorcerer and barabrain all out of the above. bard and sorcerer I don't have a good idea for, monk needs alot of love (maybe ground floor rewrite) and barbarian I would rather 1) not be called that and 2) maybe be made into subclasses for other classes as bezerkers...</p><p></p><p>except when they do (Vampiric touch, wither an bloom, magic adept)</p><p></p><p>and again it was far from perfect... but it was my favorite time to play a non caster... in 8 years of playing 4e we had more martial non casters then adding the last 4 years of 2e, all 7ish years of 3e/3,5 and all 7ish years of 5e added togather... and we played 2e after school so I still can count more 2e campaigns then any other edition (as I got older I have had less time to play/run)</p><p></p><p>you just need to go with the old stand by (that as far as I understand never changed but don't quote me on it) not all people have a class... yes there are warriors and soldiers, but 90% of them don't have the tricks a 3rd level fighter would have access to. Yes a Mage (any caster) is magical to them, and to monsters, but an equal to the non caster classes still</p><p></p><p></p><p>i don't mind classless systems, but I would prefer roles be more ingrained in classes. </p><p></p><p>in 4e you had 4 combat roles. Every class had a primary and 1 or 2 secondary roles. You could build to lean more toward a secondary role then your primary but you would still have the tools in the box to be passible in the primary (since they were baked in). I liked that but thought that 5e should do roles like that in all three pillars.</p><p></p><p>my go to example would be a 5e rouge is primary strike secondary defend but also primary sneak but secondary sneak, they are primary mobility with secondary survival.... but with the right choices you could make a rogue a leader (healer kit feat+fast hands and some potions) with useing expertise plus skill choices to fill other social and exploration roles... </p><p></p><p>now again no one pays me to make game mechanics, someone smarter and better at it would have to make it work... but that is the idea.</p><p></p><p>your way yes... my way not really. I mean I would also want "Choose heritage, background, class, archetype" to be the normal 1st level chocies with heritage and background being a mix of what race and background are now, class being like above and archetype being your 1st type of broad subclass... then at 3rd everyone would get a subclass (so kinda like warlock) and have minor choices every level in between.</p><p></p><p>I also would choose a point (in 4e 11 worker best) that you get another choice add on like prestige class (most likely name I would choose) or paragon path... and get a flat +1 to all stats that also increases your max to 21.</p><p></p><p>I would also want BOTH 4e and 2e multi classing (not 3e or 5e) but I am sure that is a pipe dream and 2e multi classing is never coming back... but feat multi classing I think was great... even magic adept haveing a bigger brother that let you add a spell to your list for you alone could be cool (see not anti caster, I want them to have fun too)</p><p></p><p>I like HD but I also like front loaded HP with less as you level... so everyone starting with 3HD, having a feat (toughness) that can grant you another HD, and not adding con bonus to them... but only getting HD then on even levels and a small set amount of hp at odd levels (if it was con bonus or the 1/2/3 like over 9th level of 2e I'm not sure...I like the 2e idea) so only the luckiest warriors would have 100hp at level 20, and almost nooene before that. this would require lowering damage on monsters a bit, but ingeneral this could help.</p><p></p><p>I think what we need is a ground up rewrite... but I don't want to throw out the whole system... bounded accuracy for only a small+ to most things (making stats matter more) is way better then 3e number explosion, and even is better then the up to +15 half level of 4e. however even that I think could use a bump (instead of maxing at +6 if it maxed at +8) and I think like 4e all untrained (maybe just most... I would be okay if it was just saves and attacks not skills) some boost. so an 8str character doesn't still have a -1 save at level 20 (or monster) if it was half (so 3 at current and 4 my upped way) that -1 would be +2-+3 and as such still be bad but not DC19 needs a nat 20 bad.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="HammerMan, post: 8546846, member: 84112"] except with spells... you can change the narrative with spells funny enough that example is as close as we get to what I want... a rogue subclass CAN give the charmed condition. yup and I even (maybe end of last year) had a whole post/thread about mutants and masterminds compared to 4e... I don't want it to go the FULL M&M way. As much as I love 4e, I don't even want it to go that full route. if you could play a 2e style wizard with 4e style cantrips (so mostly noncombat... although I would say detect magic could be one) with a modfied 5e concentration next to a 2e cleric (I really like spheres so that you have diffrent clerics taking from diffrent spell lists) next to a 4e warlord, and an amalgam of ranger and rogue from 4e.... along with some mix of a 4e slayer fighter with the 5e fighter (so still simple) right next to the 5e artificer and warlock I would be SUPER happy. I don't know how to do it I don't know how to balance it. but at no point do I want Mutants and Mastermind fully classless system (and in 2e with skills and power build your own class I didn't have good experences) I left monk bard sorcerer and barabrain all out of the above. bard and sorcerer I don't have a good idea for, monk needs alot of love (maybe ground floor rewrite) and barbarian I would rather 1) not be called that and 2) maybe be made into subclasses for other classes as bezerkers... except when they do (Vampiric touch, wither an bloom, magic adept) and again it was far from perfect... but it was my favorite time to play a non caster... in 8 years of playing 4e we had more martial non casters then adding the last 4 years of 2e, all 7ish years of 3e/3,5 and all 7ish years of 5e added togather... and we played 2e after school so I still can count more 2e campaigns then any other edition (as I got older I have had less time to play/run) you just need to go with the old stand by (that as far as I understand never changed but don't quote me on it) not all people have a class... yes there are warriors and soldiers, but 90% of them don't have the tricks a 3rd level fighter would have access to. Yes a Mage (any caster) is magical to them, and to monsters, but an equal to the non caster classes still i don't mind classless systems, but I would prefer roles be more ingrained in classes. in 4e you had 4 combat roles. Every class had a primary and 1 or 2 secondary roles. You could build to lean more toward a secondary role then your primary but you would still have the tools in the box to be passible in the primary (since they were baked in). I liked that but thought that 5e should do roles like that in all three pillars. my go to example would be a 5e rouge is primary strike secondary defend but also primary sneak but secondary sneak, they are primary mobility with secondary survival.... but with the right choices you could make a rogue a leader (healer kit feat+fast hands and some potions) with useing expertise plus skill choices to fill other social and exploration roles... now again no one pays me to make game mechanics, someone smarter and better at it would have to make it work... but that is the idea. your way yes... my way not really. I mean I would also want "Choose heritage, background, class, archetype" to be the normal 1st level chocies with heritage and background being a mix of what race and background are now, class being like above and archetype being your 1st type of broad subclass... then at 3rd everyone would get a subclass (so kinda like warlock) and have minor choices every level in between. I also would choose a point (in 4e 11 worker best) that you get another choice add on like prestige class (most likely name I would choose) or paragon path... and get a flat +1 to all stats that also increases your max to 21. I would also want BOTH 4e and 2e multi classing (not 3e or 5e) but I am sure that is a pipe dream and 2e multi classing is never coming back... but feat multi classing I think was great... even magic adept haveing a bigger brother that let you add a spell to your list for you alone could be cool (see not anti caster, I want them to have fun too) I like HD but I also like front loaded HP with less as you level... so everyone starting with 3HD, having a feat (toughness) that can grant you another HD, and not adding con bonus to them... but only getting HD then on even levels and a small set amount of hp at odd levels (if it was con bonus or the 1/2/3 like over 9th level of 2e I'm not sure...I like the 2e idea) so only the luckiest warriors would have 100hp at level 20, and almost nooene before that. this would require lowering damage on monsters a bit, but ingeneral this could help. I think what we need is a ground up rewrite... but I don't want to throw out the whole system... bounded accuracy for only a small+ to most things (making stats matter more) is way better then 3e number explosion, and even is better then the up to +15 half level of 4e. however even that I think could use a bump (instead of maxing at +6 if it maxed at +8) and I think like 4e all untrained (maybe just most... I would be okay if it was just saves and attacks not skills) some boost. so an 8str character doesn't still have a -1 save at level 20 (or monster) if it was half (so 3 at current and 4 my upped way) that -1 would be +2-+3 and as such still be bad but not DC19 needs a nat 20 bad. [/QUOTE]
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