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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 8550889" data-attributes="member: 6795602">I can't make heads or tails of this point so skipping it and maybe you can elaborate.IMO.  IF he actually needs GWM or another combat feat to be good at melee combat (my contention) then the tradeoff isn't a fair one.  IMO.  The tradeoff you are suggesting for the str fighter becomes 1) be good at melee combat or 2) don't be good at any aspect of combat. This is something I just now realized:Thrown Weapon Style is enough to grant a str fighter some extra range while making all his attacks and works well when coupled with Great Weapons.  So Str Fighters at least have some short ranged options with minimal investment.  I can't believe this point isn't brought up more often!The 30ft range bothers me but using such weapons at disadvantage at long range is still likely better than using a longbow with 14 dex.The argument is that the DPR of firebolt is higher in the 20 int vs 14 dex situation and it's demonstratably true.  14 dex isn't a trivial investment either.  It means you didn't put that 14 in something like wisdom or cha. And Yes - magic weapons/buffs/fighting styles/superiority dice/etc can change the math back into the longbows favor, but it's not simply about doing slightly more damage than the firebolt.  The point is that it's much too low of damage altogether on a class whose sole reason for existence is combat.There's some major nuance missing here.  No one has a problem with the fighter having weaknesses.  The question is whether the level of weakness compared to the power of his strengths is fair especially when compared with other classes like the Wizard.  Many of us here look at that and say no.When you argue against things other people don't say or believe it doesn't make your position stronger.There's nothing statistically misleading about DPR - it's just expected value for damage.The most seen quantum fighter is one that has all the combat feats, maxes all stats, takes all fighting styles, has all subclass features and has all out of combat feats.  The people pointing out that the fighter can't have all those things simultaneously aren't arguing for a quantum fighter but for a realistic one.</blockquote>

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