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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8551118" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Since several of these are fair criticisms, stated in advance, rather than after-the-fact gotchas, I would like to offer you the chance to pick whatever build of Fighter you like, subject to the following restrictions:1. No rolled stats2. Race is factored out for everything except racial stat bonuses (so, no crit-fisher build dependent on half-orc).3. No more than 2 feats, 3 if one is provided by race.4. You may use a magic item, but not one that adds extra damage dice. Pick a plus value appropriate to level (e.g. +3 is not appropriate for a presumed typical 11th level character.) If this is too loosey-goosey I can set a fixed value.5. A mixture of pure solo, pure large-group, and solo-with-flunkies fights will be used. My suggestion would be 3 large group fights, 2 solo-with-flunkies, and 3 pure solo fights.6. Regardless of the potential to do so, you may not benefit from spells that would raise your damage, whether cast by yourself or others. I mean this to compare "pure" martial skill and see the magic item as already a concession on that front.7. We agree, in advance, on baseline numbers for average chance to hit, and average chance for an opponent to fail a save. The two characters may exceed this value only with documented sources of improvement or enemy detriment (e.g. a condition that makes them weaker).8. It will be assumed that any character stat-dependent values are based on a score of 20 unless you choose a level for the builds which is too low to achieve this (but I would request that you please not go so low, as it will make things hella complicated.)9. Each character gets equal amounts of probability boost in the appropriate form, i.e. if the Fighter gets advantage on half of their attacks, the Wizard forces enemies to roll with disadvantage on half of saves. If you dispute this, I'm willing to discuss what you think should be fair, but I will expect at least some enemies to have disadvantage on saves.I would likewise abide by all of these or the closest equivalent (e.g. no self buff spells that improve offense, only one magic item), plus the following:1. I will not make use of the Wizard's ability to learn additional spells. Only the starting 6 plus 2 per additional character level will be used.2. Moreover, to support a more diverse character, I will not take more than 2 spells of a given level as damage spells, and will generally assume that at least 1 spell slot of each level 1-5 is used for non-damage benefits.3. I will not cast any spells higher than 5th level, neither innately nor by upcasting. This will not be used as a gotcha later; I am assuming that these spells are all cast for some other benefit unrelated to combat.4. I will not assume that the Wizard can be perfectly 100% safe without effort. This may take the form of some of the aforementioned non-damage spells.5. I will use Arcane Recovery, but will abide by its restrictions and only use it with optimum efficiency if that is actually feasible (e.g. I have to spend 10 spell levels' worth of spells before I can benefit from it fully).Do these meet with your approval? I am trying, as much as possible, to make something I hope you will consider equitable and well-defined in advance so that we can agree on the results, even if others do not. This means I hope you will take a charitable reading of the restrictions placed on each of us. As a further consequence, I would like you to define what cutoff range(s) you feel are necessary for the damage output of the above characters. E.g., I don't personally think the Fighter "wins" this contest if it only achieves 1 or 10 more points of expected daily damage. The Fighter is sold as being dramatically superior at combat, and I am hoping to test a Wizard that prepares well for combat but does not exclusively focus on it. So, what thresholds would you consider qualifying as the Fighter being moderately superior vs significantly superior vs overwhelmingly superior? I may haggle with you some on these but at least in principle I am open to what values please you, whether absolute numbers or percentages.Should you not wish to take up this challenge, that is fine, I don't doubt someone else will. Especially since I'm the one offering to <s>make all the mistakes</s> crunch all the numbers for this particular competition. (That is only half joking; I expect that I will make several errors so I beg forgiveness from anyone who takes up this challenge.) Note that I will only crunch the numbers once though, apart from any corrections due to math errors. I am emphatically NOT asking every single person in the thread to come up with their own "Wizard-defeater" build of Fighter for me to crunch numbers on.</blockquote>

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