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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ruleslawyer" data-source="post: 3057821" data-attributes="member: 1757">Now now. Play nice, kids.As to the original statement: I can't agree that "it's not the game, it's the players" is an inapplicable stock response. It's actually, IMHO, the right answer here. IMX, if you have REALLY casual players, they won't care what game system you run; I have one friend who's prejudiced against AD&D (3e seems to have taken care of most of his concerns), but otherwise, I've never had a problem getting my friends roped in to a game, whether it's Shadowrun, D&D, Ars Magica, Marvel Superheroes, or whatever. You do seem to have a particular group of players: Specifically, you have some serious powergamers, and you have some people who know every little 3.5 rules option out there. (My guess is that those people may be the same thing, although there are certainly enough counter-examples out there.) The problem is twofold, I take it:1) your rules-master types have spent time and effort achieving rules mastery, and they're going to be threatened by the prospect of abandoning their cherished familiarity and skill with the rules and having to build it up again in another system. 2) Your more casual players may feel like knowing a little about D&D should be plenty; they don't want to spend the cash or the time to know a little about a second ruleset.So here's what I suggest. I do *not* recommend C&C because I actually think that it's more complicated than it should be. While C&C has fewer rules than 3e, they share the 1e/2e problem of lacking unified mechanics. Thus, by dropping skills and feats, C&C has instead embedded some of those mechanics into randomly-located class features. The fact is that the ranger's climbing or hiding abilities create just as many rules to look up as the CLimb or Hide skills do; it's just that those abilities are confined to one class... and, to be perfectly honest, aren't as straightforward as in D&D. Then there are the different XP tables, et cetera. What I'd recommend is a stripped-down D&D game. Ditch the optional rules; stick to the core three and nothing else. No PrCs, no splatbook feats, and so on. Remove attacks of opportunity and related feats; just state that any action other than an attack performed in a threatened square provokes an immediate melee attack from the opponent. You really can unplug lots of elements from D&D before you skew it irretrievably.</blockquote>

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