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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Philotomy Jurament" data-source="post: 3058640" data-attributes="member: 20854">No; I'm saying that your statement about C&C having a bunch of parallel subsystems is misleading.  I think I know what you're getting at, but they're not really separate systems.  Rangers (and Rogues) use an ability check (and thus primes) just like anyone else.  The significant difference is that Rangers and Rogues have climbing and hiding as class abilities, so they can add their level to the ability check.  A cleric can try to climb that cliff, too, getting the same situational modifiers and using the same mechanic as the Ranger, but he doesn't get to add his level (and if he doesn't have the right stat prime, his chances will be much lower, in any case).Some class abilities really *are* or should be exclusive.  But some class abilities (e.g. climbing, hiding) can be attempted by other classes, using the same SIEGE engine/ability check mechanic that a class with that ability would use.  The GM just needs to apply some common sense.Here's what the Players Handbook has to say:That last part about the thief is what I think you're getting at.  A success by the thief has a better result than a success by the fighter, so one could say they're operating under "different rules."  The thief can be absolutely silent where the fighter can just be really quiet.  Same thing with climbing.  Everyone can climb, but a thief has a chance to climb surfaces that no one else would be able to.  So I agree that there's something to what you're arguing.  However, I don't think that merits labelling as a parallel subsystem.  It's the same mechanic, it's just that C&C emphasizes the archetype by allowing classes to have "extraordinary successes" with their class abilities.Incidentally, this discussion reminds of Robert Fisher's page on classic D&D (specifically the one <a href="http://robert.infogami.com/On_thief_skills_in_classic_D&D" target="_blank">about thief skills</a>).  Now, Classic D&D is a system that had parallel subsystems!  On the other hand, Robert tends to think <a href="http://robert.infogami.com/Unified_mechanic" target="_blank">that isn't such a big deal</a>.  (Yeah, completely different discussion, there...)Yeah, 2nd printing.  The rules are the same, so it's not really a 2nd edition the way we typically think of editions.</blockquote>

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