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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dandu" data-source="post: 5738978" data-attributes="member: 85158">Hassassin, context matters. The context was, iirc, that monks were MAD and thus could not have high AC while still dealing good damage and have enough HP.But yes, I will say you don't have to have low AC. But do you concede that you cannot have good AC, good damage, and high hit points?(I notice you had to choose between a Con boosting item and a Wis boosting item, so your monk has... 8+4.5*11+12*2 hit points, or 81.5 on average. This... is insufficient.)A level 12 monk deals 2d6 damage per hit. 2d8 assuming Improved Natural Attack. This is not 3d6. <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm" target="_blank">At no point does a monk deal 3d6 damage with his fists according to the table.</a> Your damage is actually 9 per hit on average. 11 if you use Improved Natural Attack.It's cool. Everyone makes a typo now and tehn.Hassassin, you have forgotten to factor in DR. The fighter deals an average of 16 damage per hit. The monk deals an average of 9 or 11 damage per hit.Now, I believe I have mentioned CR 11 enemies. I will repost the list I had with commentary on how a monk who deals 11 damage on a hit, 87 HP, and AC 29 fares.[sblock]<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#airElemental" target="_blank">Air Elemental, Elder</a>  - 204 HP. AC 27. AB of +27, 2d8+6 damage per attack, 2 slams in a full  round attack. DR 10/-, whirlwind form, air mastery, elemental traits. You are not dealing significant damage to this.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon" target="_blank">Black Dragon, Adult</a> - 199 HP. AC 27. AB of +24, with lots of natural attacks. I do not think you would like to be in melee with this one. Nor do I think 11 damage per hit - and you hit 45% of the time with an AB of 15 - is going to help much.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blueDragon" target="_blank">Blue Dragon, Young adult</a> - 189 HP. AC 26. AB of +23, with lots of natural attacks.  I do not think you would like to be in melee with this one. Nor do I think 11 damage per hit - and you hit 50% of the time with an AB of 15 - is going to help much.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#copperDragon" target="_blank">Copper Dragon, Young adult</a> - 161 HP. AC 25. AB of +20, with lots of natural attacks.  Well, it's certainly weaker than the other two...<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm#cryohydra" target="_blank">Cryohydra, Ten-Headed</a>  - 108 HP. AC 20. AB of +14, 1d10+5 damage per attack, 10 attack per  round. Fast healing 20, darkvision 60 ft, low light vision, scent. On the plus side, it has to roll a 15 or greater to hit AC 29, and you can hit it on a 5 or higher. On the minus side, it has 10 attacks per round and fast healing. But at least Fast Healing isn't DR... and you have Evasion against its breath weapon.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm#pyrohydra" target="_blank">Pyrohydra, Ten-Headed</a> - same as above.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm" target="_blank">Hydra, Twelve-Headed</a>  - 129 HP. AC 22. AB of +17, 2d8+6 damage per attack, 12 attacks per  round. Fast healing 22, darkvision 60 ft, low light vision, scent. Probably not going to go well. It hits AC 29 45% of the time, and with 12 attacks per round that... what, five attacks that hit AC 29? Average of 15 damage per attack... times five, that's 75 damage.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#hezrou" target="_blank">Demon, Hezrou</a>  - 138 HP. AC 23. AB of +14, bite deals 4d4+5 damage, two claws with an  AB of +9 deal 1d8+2 damage each. DR 10/good, has Blasphemy as a spell  like ability 3/day at CL 13. Low AB, but DR 10. Also, Blasphemy automatically renders a level 12 character blinded and deafened. Strikes me as a bad thing.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#barbedDevilHamatula" target="_blank">Devil, Barbed (Hamatula)</a>  - 126 HP. AC 29. AB 18, 2d6+6 damage each, 2 attacks on a full attack.  DR 10/good, barbed defense (enemies striking a barbed devil without a  reach weapon take 1d8+6 points of piercing damage). DR 10, automatically deals damage when a monk hits it, AC that requires the monk roll a 14 or higher to hit, an AB sufficient to hit AC 19 half the time, an average of 13 damage per it...[/sblock]Now, what happens when you fight an CR 12 enemy, like a <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#kolyarut" target="_blank">Kolyarut</a>, which has DR 10/Chaotic. The Kolyarut has 91 HP, fast healing 5, construct traits (immune to stunning), and Vampiric Touch as an attack. I think it safe to say that the monk is not even scratching it and can be ignored. A fighter, on the other hand, -gets 6 points of damage through - and here's the thing - with the option to Power Attack for more. Or he could try and trip the thing, which is a good debuff for melee enemies. Not all enemies will be that hard, admittedly. The <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/basilisk.htm#abyssalGreaterBasilisk" target="_blank">Greater Abyssal Baslisk </a>has DR 10/Magic that can be overcome by the monk, and AC 17 meaning you can hit it easily. However, it also has 189 HP and a +25 melee attack that deals 2d8+10 damage. That's 19 damage per hit, and it hits on a 4 or higher. Still, you're at least dealing 11 damage to it. That's better than nothing.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/frostWorm.htm" target="_blank">Frost Worm</a>; AC 18, but 147 HP. +21 bite, 2d8+12 damage, +1d8 cold damage. You'd probably do alright against this too. Well, at least you'd survive the death throes explosion.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm" target="_blank">Colossal Monstrous Scorpion</a>; AC 26, 300 HP. On a full attack, it gets "2 claws +34 melee (2d8+12) and sting +29 melee (2d8+6 plus poison)". It also has the Constrict and Improved Grab special abilities. It has a grapple modifier of +58. I know monks are supposed to be good at grappling, but I doubt you would want to grapple with this thing.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leonal.htm" target="_blank">Leonal</a>: DR 10/evil. Again does Damage Reduction rear its ugly head.<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm" target="_blank">Purple Worm</a>: AC 19, 200 HP. Bite +25 for 2d8+12 damage. Full attack includes a +20 sting for 2d6+6 damage and poison. Improved Grab and Swallow Whole.That's not all of the list. Feel free to search for CR 12 monsters of your own and ask yourself "How is the monk contributing to this situation adequately"?That is true. Golems would not. But anything with an Int score of 8 or higher would probably be able to assess the situation better.Also, relying on the enemy's incompetence is not an argument for the power of the monk. If you are only good when fighting dumb enemies...I could make a Commoner powerful by Polymorphing him into a Hydra. Doesn't mean Commoner is a good class.Allow me to be brutally honest with you. You have high AC but you get in chip damage, and get hit most of the time anyways, which is a huge problem with your low HP. For comparison purposes consider that a wizard with 14 Con to start with and a +4 Amulet of Health has 4+2.5*11+12*4=79.5 hp on average, before using things like False Life. Being 8 hit points healthier than a squishy wizard is not what a melee class wants.Alright, but as you mentioned, that's not entirely fair to the monk because he's so much more than just a melee class. Maybe he will do something else well that justifies the fact that he is worse than a Summon Monster spell. Sneaking? Well, you have stealth skills, but without trapfinding you won't be too useful there. Social skills? You have neither the Cha score for it nor can you spare the skill points.The problem with the monk is while he can do several things, he cannot do them with anything approaching a degree of competence unlike a good support/5th wheel character like the Bard.Look, do you want to run a few encounters with CR appropriate enemies? Find a CR 10 melee monster for your level 12 monk and see how he does?Here's your monk, for the record.[sblock][/sblock]</blockquote>

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