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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6544704" data-attributes="member: 4937">At this point, it's completely clear you are an angry troll with no point to make.You've accused me of not enforcing rules, yet you don't know what rules I'm not enforcing.  More to the point though, the sort of things you now are bringing up have nothing to do with my assertion that being able to survive epic play requires absolute immunities, nor does it undermine the basis of that assertion. No. No. No, but then I generally trust my players not to cheat.  When they are cheating, I usually catch on fairly quickly. Yes.Wealth by level?  No, but I assure you that in general my players are beneath the wealth by level guidelines most of the time.  In any event, this has nothing to do with my point, nor do I want to get into another argument about what is a rule and what is a guideline.  Suffice to say that, if I wasn't enforcing the WBL guidelines, it still wouldn't make it not true that survival as an epic level character is predicated on absolute immunities.  Err what?  Have you skipped over to 1e or something.  I don't know what you mean by this exactly, but in any event it doesn't really matter.Ok, that's enough of that.  Where anywhere is there any question or worry or concern of my concerning whether the players can "walk all over me".  I assure you, I could keep the players from walking all over me whether they cheated, had twice the wealth by level, and any thing else - not that those are issues, but believe me, I'm well equipped to defend myself from munchkin power gamers.  I never even raised an issue in this thread regarding whether the DM could hold his own.  What you specifically challenged me over is my assertion that in order to hold their own, epic PC's had to have absolute immunities.First, so what?  How does this in any way counter my assertion that epic PC's require absolute immunities?  What does this have to do with the thing you quoted that originally set you off.  Secondly, why in the heck are you harping on and on about beating the players down and enforcing the rules and crap like that?   Why the heck do you feel the need to tell me to abuse my players?  My problems with epic level play have ZERO, NOTHING, NADA, to do with worries that I wouldn't be able to challenge the players tactically or in terms of system or scale of numbers or anything of that sort.   I have no worries or concerns regarding whether I can compete with the players or whether I'm going to get bullied by the players or any things else to do with that adversarial crap.   As I said, my problems with epic play are conceptual and for lack of a proper term simulationist in nature.   It's pretty darn clear from you concerns (which to me strike me as so much petty trivial crap) that you and I are not playing the same game.However, again, this is all a tangent.   The original assertion is simply factually.  Among other things you have to take into account, if you can't survive a very large number of attacks from low level spellcasters simultaneously, then your epic level character is simply toast.   If for example, you are going up against Mephistopheles - which is RAW a fairly low level epic opponent - some consideration must be made for the fact that he can trivially arrange you to be attacked by 100's or 1000's of greater devils who loyally serve him, often have teleport capabilities, and have ranged magical attacks.  So if you are supposed to be 25th level or something, and a few 100 CR 10 foes are still a problem, chances are you are a very dead 25th level character even before we get into discussions about how unpredictable the math gets when we are dealing with characters above CR 20 interacting with each other.   This sort of stuff doesn't even require you to get up above 20th level to experience.  Anyone familiar with say the D20 grapple rules knows that high level characters pretty much have to have Freedom of Action or similar absolute immunity or at some point they just get squished and die no save.</blockquote>

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