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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6547223" data-attributes="member: 4937">This is exactly right, and it is a pervasive problem with high level play that both 4e and 5e tried to address.&nbsp; It's not unique to D&amp;D.&nbsp; It starts showing up in most systems eventually in one form or another.&nbsp; Whenever the bonuses get so large that they overwhelm the random factor of the fortune roll, the system starts to break down.&nbsp; In some systems it shows up as, &quot;Whatever character X finds trivial, character Y finds impossible.&nbsp; Thus, no challenge is ever a group challenge.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; In systems with opposed rolls it shows up as, &quot;The whole system and all it's choices can be reduced to throwing 100 dice, and the side that rolls the most 20's wins.&quot;&nbsp; In some systems it's both.The 'to hit' problem is one of the least egregious.&nbsp;&nbsp; Even worse is the saving throw problem.&nbsp; By the time you are up to CR40, the potential variances in your expected saving throw bonuses are so high that your best save might be in the 40's, while your worst save is in the 20's.&nbsp; Worse, the DC of saving throws will vary from in the 20's to into the 60's.&nbsp; Saving throws have a tendency to become very binary.&nbsp; Either your chance of success is close to 0, or else it is darn close to 1.&nbsp;&nbsp; Grappling is if anything even worse.&nbsp; The grapple bonus of a CR appropriate creature might vary from being in the low 20s to the 90's.&nbsp; If you aren't immune to grappling or impossible to hit, then you're probable a 95% chance of success touch attack away from being helplessly crushed - in some cases by a creature that can take -20 on its grapple check and still autowin the opposed check.&nbsp; This is a contributing factor to the reason that absolute immunities or absolute circumventions become increasing more important than linear improvements to your defenses and offenses.&nbsp; Unless the number is 'nearly infinite' and far outside the range of numbers you encounter, it becomes unimportant what your to hit bonus is, or what your AC is, because their will always be foes that overwhelm whatever number you have.&nbsp; What becomes important is, &quot;Can you evade an attack with a 100% success rate?&quot;, or &quot;Are you 100% immune to damage of this type?&quot;, or &quot;Can you ignore the opponent's AC entirely.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; This further contributes to increasing variation of the numbers.At this level of play, the only abilities that are of any real value are those that absolutely defend against something or absolutely circumvent it.&nbsp; Getting the bonus to something up by another +X, where X is a number less than 30 or so, is fairly meaningless and probably more difficult than finding something that says, &quot;Your opponent's defense doesn't matter&quot;, or &quot;Your defense doesn't matter.&quot;&nbsp; Which is why thing's like Anti-Magic field and Mage's Disjunction ends up playing such a huge role in the tactics of high level play.&nbsp; The spells are pretty crushing absolutes.&nbsp;&nbsp; AMF reads, &quot;An anti-magic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; Note that caster level isn't specified.&nbsp;&nbsp; It all just winks out, almost certainly resulting in immediate shifts in defenses and attacks by larger than the fortune roll.&nbsp;&nbsp; What was just impossible is now possible.&nbsp; What was just unlikely, is now almost certain.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you aren't absolutely immune to the AMF, now what?&nbsp;&nbsp; Likewise, disjunction doesn't specify caster level either.&nbsp;&nbsp; It just crushes everything.&nbsp; Anything dispellable is now dispelled, which means any spell of any duration even permanent is now gone.&nbsp; Moreover, the problem with the wide variation in expected DC's is now critical.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's possible that the targets are about to lose all their non-artifact magic items, and at this level of play many of their artifacts as well.&nbsp; Poof.&nbsp; Gear dependent PC's will likely have their effective CR get cut in half.&nbsp; And so on and so forth.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6547223, member: 4937"] This is exactly right, and it is a pervasive problem with high level play that both 4e and 5e tried to address. It's not unique to D&D. It starts showing up in most systems eventually in one form or another. Whenever the bonuses get so large that they overwhelm the random factor of the fortune roll, the system starts to break down. In some systems it shows up as, "Whatever character X finds trivial, character Y finds impossible. Thus, no challenge is ever a group challenge." In systems with opposed rolls it shows up as, "The whole system and all it's choices can be reduced to throwing 100 dice, and the side that rolls the most 20's wins." In some systems it's both. The 'to hit' problem is one of the least egregious. Even worse is the saving throw problem. By the time you are up to CR40, the potential variances in your expected saving throw bonuses are so high that your best save might be in the 40's, while your worst save is in the 20's. Worse, the DC of saving throws will vary from in the 20's to into the 60's. Saving throws have a tendency to become very binary. Either your chance of success is close to 0, or else it is darn close to 1. Grappling is if anything even worse. The grapple bonus of a CR appropriate creature might vary from being in the low 20s to the 90's. If you aren't immune to grappling or impossible to hit, then you're probable a 95% chance of success touch attack away from being helplessly crushed - in some cases by a creature that can take -20 on its grapple check and still autowin the opposed check. This is a contributing factor to the reason that absolute immunities or absolute circumventions become increasing more important than linear improvements to your defenses and offenses. Unless the number is 'nearly infinite' and far outside the range of numbers you encounter, it becomes unimportant what your to hit bonus is, or what your AC is, because their will always be foes that overwhelm whatever number you have. What becomes important is, "Can you evade an attack with a 100% success rate?", or "Are you 100% immune to damage of this type?", or "Can you ignore the opponent's AC entirely." This further contributes to increasing variation of the numbers. At this level of play, the only abilities that are of any real value are those that absolutely defend against something or absolutely circumvent it. Getting the bonus to something up by another +X, where X is a number less than 30 or so, is fairly meaningless and probably more difficult than finding something that says, "Your opponent's defense doesn't matter", or "Your defense doesn't matter." Which is why thing's like Anti-Magic field and Mage's Disjunction ends up playing such a huge role in the tactics of high level play. The spells are pretty crushing absolutes. AMF reads, "An anti-magic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it." Note that caster level isn't specified. It all just winks out, almost certainly resulting in immediate shifts in defenses and attacks by larger than the fortune roll. What was just impossible is now possible. What was just unlikely, is now almost certain. If you aren't absolutely immune to the AMF, now what? Likewise, disjunction doesn't specify caster level either. It just crushes everything. Anything dispellable is now dispelled, which means any spell of any duration even permanent is now gone. Moreover, the problem with the wide variation in expected DC's is now critical. It's possible that the targets are about to lose all their non-artifact magic items, and at this level of play many of their artifacts as well. Poof. Gear dependent PC's will likely have their effective CR get cut in half. And so on and so forth. [/QUOTE]

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