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<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 8857087" data-attributes="member: 53980">I said that it didn't invoke any of the mechanical language that indicates a loud spell. I didn't say it doesn't list any sound. Just that it clearly isn't a loud spell as evidenced by the lack of mechanics associated with loud spells.A low roar is what my furnace makes when it turns on. You can hear it if you're a few feet away, but not if you're in another room. In most circumstances, if you're in the same room as someone who is the victim of sleep, that's going to be quite obvious as well. Which is what I've been saying. In a lot of cases both sleep and fireball have a roughly similar level of discretion, and it doesn't matter which you use to disable the guards. Regardless, my point has been and still is that sleep is not a non-combat spell. It's about as much a non-combat spell as the rogue sneaking up on someone and doing a non-lethal sneak attack to knock them unconscious. Which is obviously combat, even if the DM allows it to happen without rolling initiative.In any case, I agree that it seems quite unlikely that we'll see eye to eye on this. I don't really care to keep going back and forth, so feel free to respond if you wish but don't take it amiss if I don't reply.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 8857087, member: 53980"] I said that it didn't invoke any of the mechanical language that indicates a loud spell. I didn't say it doesn't list any sound. Just that it clearly isn't a loud spell as evidenced by the lack of mechanics associated with loud spells. A low roar is what my furnace makes when it turns on. You can hear it if you're a few feet away, but not if you're in another room. In most circumstances, if you're in the same room as someone who is the victim of sleep, that's going to be quite obvious as well. Which is what I've been saying. In a lot of cases both sleep and fireball have a roughly similar level of discretion, and it doesn't matter which you use to disable the guards. Regardless, my point has been and still is that sleep is not a non-combat spell. It's about as much a non-combat spell as the rogue sneaking up on someone and doing a non-lethal sneak attack to knock them unconscious. Which is obviously combat, even if the DM allows it to happen without rolling initiative. In any case, I agree that it seems quite unlikely that we'll see eye to eye on this. I don't really care to keep going back and forth, so feel free to respond if you wish but don't take it amiss if I don't reply. [/QUOTE]

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