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TSR3 Throws In Towel, Rebrands Wonderfilled
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<blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 8334588" data-attributes="member: 1210"><p>A few things.</p><p></p><p>On emergent story- I wasn't saying that any of the other playstyle examples I gave were emergent story styles- just that there are more than one playstyle that would be served by high level material. </p><p></p><p>You claim that emergent storylines tend to get resolved in the mid-levels; I am curious makes you think that. Because in my experience (mostly as a DM but also as a player), emergent story playstyles tend not to have a distinct plot to resolve. There tend to be many threads that slowly evolve and develop over time. You resolve plots, but there is no main antagonist- which means, yes, there are always more things to deal with. I don't know how common the "wrap it up around 10th" thing is in general, given that my games and the games I've played in very much don't do that; and if said games aren't representative of the broader experience- which is quite possible and maybe even likely- I do think they're more representative of the "emergent story" playstyle than the "wrap it up at 10th" approach you're describing.</p><p></p><p>I also disagree with you about the length of a combat/number of combats per session. I run pretty large groups and, excepting gigantic battle scenarios, we fit more than two combats in a typical session (assuming a session that's not completely non-combat-oriented). I'd guess, without looking at my notes, that we average around four a session. Two combats a session was pretty standard for us in 4e, though. That quicker play factor is one of the major improvements of 5e over 4e, in my opinion.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, I do acknowledge that hitting 20th level takes a long time under anything approaching "normal" or "average" gaming circumstances. And I do acknowledge that there are lots of groups that never make it that far. But plenty do, and the underserving of high level play starts well below 20th level. </p><p></p><p>There are groups- not tons, but definitely quite a few- that run persistent campaigns that span years of decades and multiple, even many, groups of both players and characters. And there are now lots of ways for old groups that have scattered to play remotely. Those old characters can keep playing, keep advancing- if there's only good material to run for them. And high level play is different than lower level play; it takes more effort to craft a challenge to high level pcs and it would be awesome if there was some stuff out there to help support players and dms who wish to carry their games forward to those rarified heights. </p><p></p><p>Please note that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wrapping it up at 10th (or even earlier, if that's what you dig). It's just not for everyone. And for those groups that prefer to go long and high, at least one adventure written for them with the standards WotC (typically) achieves would be great. So would a collection of material to support the elements of high level play that are distinct from typical low level play- things like mass combat/army rules; rulership and domains; how to become a hero-god or quasi-deity or even a god; epic destinies in general; a system for wide-reaching schemes that influence the setting; etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="the Jester, post: 8334588, member: 1210"] A few things. On emergent story- I wasn't saying that any of the other playstyle examples I gave were emergent story styles- just that there are more than one playstyle that would be served by high level material. You claim that emergent storylines tend to get resolved in the mid-levels; I am curious makes you think that. Because in my experience (mostly as a DM but also as a player), emergent story playstyles tend not to have a distinct plot to resolve. There tend to be many threads that slowly evolve and develop over time. You resolve plots, but there is no main antagonist- which means, yes, there are always more things to deal with. I don't know how common the "wrap it up around 10th" thing is in general, given that my games and the games I've played in very much don't do that; and if said games aren't representative of the broader experience- which is quite possible and maybe even likely- I do think they're more representative of the "emergent story" playstyle than the "wrap it up at 10th" approach you're describing. I also disagree with you about the length of a combat/number of combats per session. I run pretty large groups and, excepting gigantic battle scenarios, we fit more than two combats in a typical session (assuming a session that's not completely non-combat-oriented). I'd guess, without looking at my notes, that we average around four a session. Two combats a session was pretty standard for us in 4e, though. That quicker play factor is one of the major improvements of 5e over 4e, in my opinion. Anyway, I do acknowledge that hitting 20th level takes a long time under anything approaching "normal" or "average" gaming circumstances. And I do acknowledge that there are lots of groups that never make it that far. But plenty do, and the underserving of high level play starts well below 20th level. There are groups- not tons, but definitely quite a few- that run persistent campaigns that span years of decades and multiple, even many, groups of both players and characters. And there are now lots of ways for old groups that have scattered to play remotely. Those old characters can keep playing, keep advancing- if there's only good material to run for them. And high level play is different than lower level play; it takes more effort to craft a challenge to high level pcs and it would be awesome if there was some stuff out there to help support players and dms who wish to carry their games forward to those rarified heights. Please note that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wrapping it up at 10th (or even earlier, if that's what you dig). It's just not for everyone. And for those groups that prefer to go long and high, at least one adventure written for them with the standards WotC (typically) achieves would be great. So would a collection of material to support the elements of high level play that are distinct from typical low level play- things like mass combat/army rules; rulership and domains; how to become a hero-god or quasi-deity or even a god; epic destinies in general; a system for wide-reaching schemes that influence the setting; etc. [/QUOTE]
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